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V2 incompatible with V1


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I was just wondering. Who else find it slightly annoying that V2 files are not compatible with V1?

Though I have V2 of the Suite, I'm still working in V1 because of several issues (freezes, get to use to the different interface, etc).

But sometimes I would like to do small things in V2. However, because these files are not compatible with V1 I just stick to the V1 apps.

Is there any chance that in a V2 update this incompatibility between V1 and V2 will be resolved?

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That might be annoying in some cases, but it's not unusual. Because new versions of programs often have new additional and/or modified functions that of course can't be supported by the older versions, that don't have them. It was e.G. the same with the 2.10-versions of GIMP, that allowed to load documents that were created with older versions, but you couldn't open documents created in GIMP 2.10 in older versions. It's simply logical.

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1 hour ago, orion said:

Is there any chance that in a V2 update this incompatibility between V1 and V2 will be resolved?

Since this is a very clear intention, see FAQ, it cannot be assumed that it will be resolved.

image.png.4d2aadd8bc225b0d123de97a9050da8b.png

 

 

P.S. many ways to transfer data from V2 back to V1 have already been mentioned here. Try searching for V2 backward compatibility topics.

https://www.google.com/search?q=V2+backward+compatibility+site:forum.affinity.serif.com

 

Affinity Store (MSI/EXE): Affinity Suite (ADe, APh, APu) 2.4.0.2301
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Serif-FAQ:
"As you would expect, V1 will not be able to open V2 documents,.."

wrong.
I expect that V(n-1) does open files from V(n).
Ever heard of a software called Microsoft Word?
Guess what: Files created with Word 365 can be opened with Word 2019, 2016, 2013, 2010, and 2007.
Features that are not available in an earlier version are ignored but the document and most of it´s contents are available.

Please: no discussion about "this is not possible..." it simply is possible; Serif just did not implement it.

Lack of time? Lack of knowledge? attempt to force customers to fully migrate to V2.0?
We don´t know...

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It is at least consistent with previous V1 processing, @Fritz_H.

1.5 could not open files saved with 1.6.

1.6 could not open files from 1.7.

etc.

And therefore, users of V1 should indeed expect that 1.10 can't open files from 2.0.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
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Again, it's absolutely normal that files, created with software, can not be opened with older (Sorry, had to correct this fail) versions of the software. It is simply natural and logical. How should older software, that doesn't have certain newer functions, interpret these functions, if they are not implemented in the earlier versions? In that case, the older versions would need to be updated, not vice versa. And how should that make sense for the developers?

Even Microsoft says that files that are created with newer versions of Word, are not fully compatible with older versions of Word, because some new features may not be supported.

It would of course be different with exported files. There should not be any problems to open JPEGs, PNGs or stuff like that, created in Photo 2, if you open them in version 1. But it will not work wit Afphoto-files.

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11 hours ago, Fritz_H said:

can be opened

The fact that the file can be "Opened" does not at all mean that all the content from the new document is transferred/loaded (you write about it yourself). But what's the use if I can "open" the file, but half of my new work disappears? I don't even know what opened/ported me and what didn't and disappeared forever! So then I have to go through the whole document step by step and find out what is lost/"didn't open" and what I need to fix and somehow replace - thank you for this great benefit. I prefer it if Serif honestly admits that it won't "open" new formats in old applications, because all the content wouldn't be transferred anyway. And so it is up to the user to do the transfer in his own way, because then he is in complete control of the transfer and knows what has been transferred and what has not. For example, using export via PDF, or using the Clipboard, where compatible things can be transferred between both versions without any problem - i.e. defacto the same thing that the mentioned "Open" in Word will do for you.

P.S. Note that the OP is not asking to be able to "open" new files in the old version, but asking for full forward compatibility "V2 files are not compatible with V1?"! And that is simply impossible in principle - not even the aforementioned Word can do it.

Edited by Pšenda

Affinity Store (MSI/EXE): Affinity Suite (ADe, APh, APu) 2.4.0.2301
Dell OptiPlex 7060, i5-8500 3.00 GHz, 16 GB, Intel UHD Graphics 630, Dell P2417H 1920 x 1080, Windows 11 Pro, Version 23H2, Build 22631.3155.
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2 hours ago, iconoclast said:

are only down-compatible and can not be opened with newer versions of the software.

I think you meant backward compatibility, and that the old format can be opened in the newer version of the software.
You wrote it the other way around.

Affinity Store (MSI/EXE): Affinity Suite (ADe, APh, APu) 2.4.0.2301
Dell OptiPlex 7060, i5-8500 3.00 GHz, 16 GB, Intel UHD Graphics 630, Dell P2417H 1920 x 1080, Windows 11 Pro, Version 23H2, Build 22631.3155.
Dell Latitude E5570, i5-6440HQ 2.60 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics 530, 1920 x 1080, Windows 11 Pro, Version 23H2, Build 22631.3155.
Intel NUC5PGYH, Pentium N3700 2.40 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics, EIZO EV2456 1920 x 1200, Windows 10 Pro, Version 21H1, Build 19043.2130.

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It would be a life saver to have an option similar to IDML with InDesign - which would only have to do what is achievable with copy and paste between Affinity 2 to 1 = keeps everything the same but rasterises / converts to paths unsupported features, which works decent enough but isn't practical on large multipage documents - at the moment Affinity 2 can save PSD's which open in 12 year old Photoshop CS5 great, and just rasterises unsupported featured, which seems really odd to me - for anyone who needs to send editable Affinity documents to clients or collaborate with designers that can't upgrade to 2 for whatever reason, this is really needed - for me, and I'm guessing a lot of small design agencies, self employed, freelancers, I would also say it is currently essential to have Affinity V1, for this purpose, so unfortunately there may be a few users who are stuck without V1 which is no longer available to buy - even a tweaked affinity PDF format (similar to Illustrator) that would be capable of saving layer information, text styles and wot not would be a massive help    

Daz1.png

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15 hours ago, Fritz_H said:

Guess what: Files created with Word 365 can be opened with Word 2019, 2016, 2013, 2010, and 2007.

The example is completely irrelevant!

Microsoft Office 365 is the same software as the vintage version of Microsoft Office except that it is only available for rent.

Pre-2007 versions of Microsoft Office do not open versions created in 2007 or later. Post-2007 versions can open the news versions, but they lose many features and when you get them back you have to redo everything.

6 cœurs, 12 processus - Windows 11 pro - 4K - DirectX 12 - Suite universelle Affinity (Affinity  Publisher, Affinity Designer, Affinity Photo).

Mais je vous le demande, peut-on imaginer une police sans sérifs ?

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1 hour ago, Pyanepsion said:

Pre-2007 versions of Microsoft Office do not open versions created in 2007 or later.

I'm quite curious if Word version 1 (as Affinity V1 currently is) could open files from Word versions 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 95, 97, 98, 2000, 2001/X, 2002/XP, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2016, 2019, 2021 and Office 365. Probably yes, because "it simply is possible".

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Dell OptiPlex 7060, i5-8500 3.00 GHz, 16 GB, Intel UHD Graphics 630, Dell P2417H 1920 x 1080, Windows 11 Pro, Version 23H2, Build 22631.3155.
Dell Latitude E5570, i5-6440HQ 2.60 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics 530, 1920 x 1080, Windows 11 Pro, Version 23H2, Build 22631.3155.
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24 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

I'm quite curious if Word version 1 (as Affinity V1 currently is) could open files from Word versions 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 95, 97, 98, 2000, 2001/X, 2002/XP, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2016, 2019, 2021 and Office 365. Probably yes, because "it simply is possible".

I'd be quite happy if there was an app that could still open my Word 5.1 for Macintosh documents…
I vaguely recall that MS Office 1998 for Mac still could do it.
Of course, it didn't really work vice versa.

On the positive side, I finally got my FreeHand 9 up and running in SheepShaver! :) 

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On 1/20/2023 at 6:03 PM, orion said:

sometimes I would like to do small things in V2

And you can.
Simply copy the content between the apps. Incompatible features like the Warp Group will be usually flattened (aka "baked appearance") when you paste it into a v1 document.

MacBookAir 15": MacOS Ventura > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // MacBookPro 15" mid-2012: MacOS El Capitan > Affinity v1 / MacOS Catalina > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // iPad 8th: iPadOS 16 > Affinity v2

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8 hours ago, iconoclast said:

Again, it's absolutely normal that files, created with software, can not be opened with older (Sorry, had to correct this fail) versions of the software. It is simply natural and logical. How should older software, that doesn't have certain newer functions, interpret these functions, if they are not implemented in the earlier versions? In that case, the older versions would need to be updated, not vice versa. And how should that make sense for the developers?

 

Among the applications I work with Photoshop and Blender come to mind as applications that will load in content saved out from much newer versions of the software. You'll get a warning prompt and content that's functionally incompatible with the older version might be either missing or displayed wrong but the general file will load in.

In many cases at least in my experience it's no big deal unless the file has been specifically built around some more recent features, resulting in half the data being omitted.

 

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3 hours ago, Dazmondo77 said:

It would be a life saver to have an option similar to IDML with InDesign

It could even be IDML. If Publisher 2 could export this format, Publisher 1 could open the exported files. With the obvious limitations imposed by the different features available in the source program. A single interchange format would solve so many problems.

Paolo

 

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19 minutes ago, PaoloT said:

It could even be IDML

My gut feeling tells me that the lack of IDML export might be a marketing decision.

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2 hours ago, loukash said:

My gut feeling tells me that the lack of IDML export might be a marketing decision.

Maybe. But do you have any idea about why they should do it?

I've assisted, even in companies where I have worked in the past, to discussions about preventing users to save to the file format of a competitor, to forbid them to go/return there.

I've always found this completely fool, in particular when the other company is a much bigger one, and an established one that wouldn't need compatibility with the data of the smaller company to survive.

At the same time, the smaller company suffered lack of interoperability, therefore of easy reuse of their customer's work in a more general context. This made the tools of the smaller company useless, despite their appeal, good quality and lower cost.

Paolo

 

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4 hours ago, PaoloT said:

But do you have any idea about why they should do it?

It might help with the problem of opening a V2 file in V1, for example :) (though perhaps only for Publisher, not Photo and Designer).

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
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1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

(though perhaps only for Publisher, not Photo and Designer)

The really secluded program is, in fact, Publisher. Both Photo and Designer have export options that may help sharing with V1 and with other programs. Not so with Publisher.

Paolo

 

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No copyright. IDML is an XML based exchange format. Anyone can make an exporter. Someone in Serif and Quark thinks you shouldn't have the opportunity, or that it's not worth the investment, or even worse, hasn't considered your needs as customers. Or as you have tried with several features, you will get it in 8 years or more. 

 1) You have completely wrecked the layers panel, Serif.

2) I recommend Reddit groups instead of this forum. Not the same few bot-like users replying to everything, a wider representation of users, fewer fanboys, more qualified users. In short, better!

3) I was here to report bugs and submit improvement requests for professional work professionally in a large setup and to bring a lot of knowledge from the world, i.e. professional product development, web- and software development, usability, user experience design and accessibility. I actually know what I am talking about!

BUT! We are phasing out Designer and Affinity in 2022 Q1 - and replacing it with feature complete and algorithmically competent alternatives.
Publisher is unsuitable for serious use, and was never adopted.

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1 hour ago, iconoclast said:

I suppose, it has to do with copyrights, that are property of Adobe

There seems to be nothing about that in docslib.org/doc/4174705/idml-file-format-specification
In fact, it says: 

Quote

[…] IDML gives you a way to create and modify In­Design documents using tools outside the In­Design application.

Importing an IDML to Publisher, modify its content and export – or even just export – as IDML would be exactly that.

MacBookAir 15": MacOS Ventura > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // MacBookPro 15" mid-2012: MacOS El Capitan > Affinity v1 / MacOS Catalina > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // iPad 8th: iPadOS 16 > Affinity v2

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On 1/21/2023 at 1:36 AM, walt.farrell said:

It is at least consistent with previous V1 processing, @Fritz_H.

1.5 could not open files saved with 1.6.
1.6 could not open files from 1.7.
etc.

In these cases:
1. the updates are free
2. the updates provided an improvement over the previous version.

both is not the case when comparing V1.x vs V2.x

Compatibility depends on the data-structure in the file.
Microsoft uses (some type of) XML.

Feature A
     Option A.1
            Parameter x
            Parameter y
     Option A.2
           sub-option A.2.1
                   Parameter x
                   Parameter y

etc. etc.

Features that are unknown to the old software are simply skipped.
That way lots of contents may be preserved. 
useful since:
1. usually only some of the new features are used in a document (80:20-Rule  80% of users use only 20% of the available feature-set)
2. Serif did not add that many new basic features to V2.0

Google offered me this:
How to Save a PSD File for Older Versions of Photoshop (lifewire.com)

"When you open a newer Photoshop PSD file in an older Photoshop version, the new features of Photoshop don't carry over when the file is opened in a version that doesn't contain these features."

There is no reason why a V 2.x file which contains only V1.x-features (an image, a text-box and perhaps a Gaussian-Blur live-filter) can not be opened by V1.x
Of course: if the V2.x file contains the (for most) useless normal-map stuff, this will be lost/skipped when opened in V1.x

I think, Serif made this incompatibility intentionally since it is possible and common:

I already mentioned MS Word.
Other major developers offer at least to save to older formats:
Drawing file format compatibility in AutoCAD | AutoCAD | Autodesk Knowledge Network
(Btw: there is a new AutoCAD-Version every year = file-compatibility is given in chunks of multiple releases..
=> AutoCAD 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 and 2023 share the same, compatible file-format...)

image.png.f1ac83c5234bec83005b91d9488a3f83.png

 

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21 hours ago, Pyanepsion said:

The example is completely irrelevant!

Microsoft Office 365 is the same software as the vintage version of Microsoft Office except that it is only available for rent.

Pre-2007 versions of Microsoft Office do not open versions created in 2007 or later. Post-2007 versions can open the news versions, but they lose many features and when you get them back you have to redo everything.

Office 365 is more or less the same as Office 2019.
(which is not fully true since Office 365 receives new features every now and then.. recently they added a writing-style-optimizer etc..)
Office 2016 and older are different products with a different feature set.

2007? really?
we discuss incompatibility from V(n) to V(n+1).
Office 2007 is 3 or 4  Releases ago (2010, 2013, 2016, 2019) since we are now at Office 2021.
 

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