why are pantone conversions based on SRGB RGB instead of L*a*b*?

[bteifeld]

I would like to know why Serif is not providing L*a*b*-based specifications for the swatches

in each of the Pantone Decks it supplies with the Serif Applications. SRGB is an inferior and

inaccurate representation of the swatches in some cases because the SRGB color space

profile gamut CANNOT encompass all the swatch colors.

 

Please consider ensuring that all Pantone swatch definitions are specified in L*a*b* as soon

as possible.

 

P.S. Providing the Cotton TCX and Paper TPG decks would be helpful.

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[bteifeld]

Thank you for your reply. I think we need to know from Serif what the reality of their

licensing arrangement actually is.

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[bteifeld]

Actually you might be interested in knowing about GretagMacbeth Colorpicker and its lineal descendant,

Colorlogic Colorant L. These tools are able to take an ICC profile associated with a given media/print process

in combination with a L*a*b* definition of a spot color and produce an optimized ink build which

in many(but not all) cases can hit the spot color very well. This makes having the L*a*b* data

valuable as long you also have a proper ICC profile.

 

[Hangman]

My understanding is that Adobe are, starting August 2022, phasing out support for Pantone colour books from their Adobe Creative Cloud applications ultimately resulting in access to all Pantone libraries requiring a paid Pantone Connect subscription which currently costs £14.99/month or £89.99/year. I wonder how much monetary kick back Adobe are getting as part of that deal?

You and I hope Serif may also be interested in the non-profit association freieFarbe e.V., https://freiefarbe.de/en/ who have developed what is effectively a licence free alternative colour system and one that would/could ultimately compete with Pantone... this video explains further...

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[Hangman]

My interpretation, rightly or wrongly, in terms of what freieFarbe e.V. are setting out to achieve is to create an industry colour standard that is free for all in the same way that water should be free for all. Colour should not be something that can be copyrighted or trademarked (in my opinion at least).

I can't claim to be up to speed with the developments and policy changes that PANTONE have introduced but outwardly it sounds as though, in the current print era, they're perhaps fighting to stay relevant and maybe there is an element of greed involved too, who knows, though maybe that assumption is completely wrong.

While it is indeed very easy to create and share custom palettes via online palette-providers I also think in general end users want convenience so having an industry wide, industry recognised colour system that is also free to use which is widely adopted makes a lot of sense rather than individual designers or companies scrabbling around online, here, there and everywhere to cobble something custom together which is not such a great approach.

Of course, you're right, for the big agencies and professional designers, they I'm sure will just accept this policy change, adopt it and move on without blinking and eyelid but I think you have to also consider the individual freelance designers and SMEs as well in the equation.

I've not used the PANTONE Connect plug-in so I can't testify to how good or bad it is but the mere fact you say, in its current form, it is is a poor legacy component and its UI is awkward and usability very poor already says a lot. If there is an alternative that is easy to implemet, use and is free, is that not potentially a better option or solution for everyone in the longer term...

I'm not in anyway disagreeing with you regarding the alternative options already available but just felt that the intentions and approach freieFarbe e.V. are adopting makes a lot of practical sense, I guess only time will tell in terms of whether they succeed.

Out of complete curiosity regarding the PANTONE policy change, where does Serif stand on that front, I realise their PANTONE libraries are all csv based but does the PANTONE Policy change have any direct impact on how Serif are permitted to use their PANTONE libraries or is there any likelihood that they may have to adopt the same stance as Adobe by removing the PANTONE libraries.

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[Hangman]

14 hours ago, lacerto said:

But is it a custom ink system that controls how print inks are prepared, or simply just a (digital) color reference?

My take is that its very much the latter but I could be wrong...

9 hours ago, lacerto said:

However when I tried to find out about the development after 2019 I could not find much anything than a database and conversion utility covering over 300 color systems

I agree, there seem to be little in terms of recent updates though I've not spent a great deal of time researching them to date, I'll really need to spend more time to be able to come back with some cohesive answers to your questions...

9 hours ago, lacerto said:

E.g. their database includes Lab-based color values of Munsell color system, but not e.g. a digital palette

There are 378 free .ase files available to download here... https://freiefarbe.de/en/thema-farbe/software/ including one for Munsell.

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[Hangman]

35 minutes ago, lacerto said:

Are there any yet available that are creations of their own, or is this merely a collection of resources gathered from the Internet and posted by users?

They are all created by freieFarbe e.V., this absolutely isn't a collection of resources gathered from other locations...

To quote them, they provide "the HLC Colour Atlas (XL) produced by the Proof GmbH on an Epson SC-P9000V Spectro printer at high cost for quality optimisation. The printing system used is predominantly used in the areas of proofing for pre-press, fine art printing and art reproduction. Thanks to the additional colours orange, green and violet, even highly saturated colours can be reproduced. To further increase colour accuracy, iterative CMYK optimisations are carried out on the software side. In this way we achieve an average DeltaE2000 of 0.8, most colour patches even a DeltaE2000 of 0.3. The colour accuracy achieved was not feasible a few years ago, it approaches that of the far more expensive varnish printing."

They understandably charge for the printed version of their Colour Atlas but the Colour Atlas is also available as a free pdf download along with...

• PDF version: HLC Colour Atlas for soft proofs on screen, for self-printing, for quick gamut comparison (CIELAB, sRGB, CMYK according to FOGRA39/51/52).
• Measurement report of the printed HLC Colour Atlas with target/actual comparison and DeltaE calculations (Excel)
• ASE colour libraries for the Adobe CS and CC programmes, with which one can use the colours shown in the atlas directly in the applications.
• sRGB and CMYK colour value tables in Excel format
• Spectral data 380-730 nm in 10 nm intervals: the CXF3 format is compatible with industrial colour formulation systems in different industries, such as printing inks, paints, plastics or textiles.

It seems to me that one of their main philosophies is to provide a comprehensive alternative to all the other colour systems out there and to provide their colour system free of charge to end users so you don't end up with third-party ownership of individual colours and of the most important colour collections or find yourself in the situation of not being able to use certain colours because they are under copyright or trademark protection like for example, Nivea Blue (Pantone 280 C) which has been protected since 2007 by the German Trademark & Patent Office as a colour trademark for body and beauty care products, despite Unilever attempting to have the tradmark cancelled in a legal dispute. This means that nobody else can legally use Pantone 280 C for body and beauty care products.

Again, in their own words and from their point of view they say, "a rethink would be necessary: away from the manufacturer collections - towards calculated colours. We should simply follow calculated colour models everywhere, because purely mathematically determined colours are copyright and licence-free.

Modern technology makes it possible. In the computer, calculated colours have long been a reality, here colour has long been fully calculable and comparable. Almost all software allows free colour input and colour calculation, and so-called "colour management" is built into all major operating systems.

Calculated colours are also calculable, in the literal and comprehensive sense, and this has numerous advantages in practice. Just try to create a brightness gradient with RAL or Pantone colours or to determine a counter colour. With mathematical colours this is no problem at all."

The reason I intitially started looking at this was because of the PANTONE policy change and how this has pushed Adobe into removing PANTONE libraries from their Creative Cloud suite, I was curious to know how this might affect Serif should they be 'forced' to remove the PANTONE libraries from the Affinity suite and then potentially end up telling users they have to pay a licence fee if they wish to continue using them and/or integrate PANTONE Connect into their software in a similar fashion. At the price point of the Affinity software and because a large portion of their customers have likely moved away from Adobe to avoid the subscription model, suddenly being 'forced' to pay, if you want or need access to PANTONE libraries (for convenience) would likely not go down well I suspect.

As you said previously, this is not perhaps such an issue for agencies and corporates with money to burn but for the SME and freelance fraternity it is perhaps a different matter and on first glance, freieFarbe e.V., seemed like an interesting approach and alternative, though I still need to dig deeper to get a better understanding of where they are at and what their plans are moving forward. I know they have a number of professional industry partners on board but I'll have to do some more reading to get a clearer picture...

Long story short, I just felt it was interesting, 'professional' and 'free' were two words that piqued my interest... 🙃

 

[henryanthony]

Very interesting discussion. I appreciate all the thoughtful comments. FWIW, I found some free stuff including ase files related to this here:

https://freiefarbe.de/en/thema-farbe/software/

Reminds me of how the Munsell color system is presented.

https://munsell.com/

I now see that information I posted may be redundant to previous posts. Oh well...

[Hangman]

1 minute ago, henryanthony said:

FWIW, I found some free stuff including ase files related to this here:

I've already installed some of the free .ase palettes in Designer to try them out...

2 minutes ago, henryanthony said:

Reminds me of how the Munsell color system is presented.

Exactly, very similar...

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

 

[lacerto]

Obsolete.