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Which master page is being used?


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I have a document with several master pages which are very similar at first glance but also just different enough that I made them master pages in the first place.

I'm aware of the 'mouse over page' to show the tooltip which shows the master page used, but that means I have to actually put the mouse over every page to see it.

Way back in PagePlus 11 there was a button to show which master page is being applied to a page, such as in the screenshot below. I would like to see this brought back. It is easy to use and also very quick to scroll down over dozens of pages (much quicker than mouse over every page on every spread).

image.png.0e1f32f75efb271d16c87b875c23c600.png

For info I did check the forums and found similar posts such as:

 

That post was > 3 years ago so it is worth a bump.

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2 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

That post was > 3 years ago so it is worth a bump.

Yes, and the same obstacles still apply as mentioned in that one, too. For example, names can be longer than 1 character, and there can be multiple masters applied to a single page, and multiple masters applied to masters, too.

-- Walt
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3 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

For example, names can be longer than 1 character

That should not be a limitation. If a page thumbnail can show a whole page it is capable of showing the typically short name used for masters.

4 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

there can be multiple masters applied to a single page, and multiple masters applied to masters, too

There is probably even more need in this case to know what is being applied than less.

Whatever I would like to see some thought given to this (by Serif) as the mouse over page thing while usable is also not very user friendly. I wonder how that works with multiple masters applied to a page.

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1 hour ago, LondonSquirrel said:

I think that the text from that tooltip could easily be put on the pages.

… or, if one feels disturbed by permanent notes on page thumbnails, they could occur only if activated by a button in the Pages panel. Of course – apart from possible doubters or convinced non-users – there exist various layout options to define such a feature, e.g. a text size that fits, colours for master pages, dimmed page layout in the background, etc., for instance …

181504604_pagespanelmasterpageastextbutton.jpg.2973a11543cc09178753f59ad4cd4be6.jpg

Personally, I would even like an option to selectively display in the Pages panel only those pages which have (selected) master pages applied. This can be an easier way in long documents to jump to a specific page (with unknown page number) while avoiding the need to scroll through the various available lists or windows of all pages.

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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4 minutes ago, anto said:

It's not obvious there at all.

Given that master pages are technically symbols, it's pretty obvious to have them there.

3 minutes ago, anto said:

I want here

Yes, that would be useful.

MacBookAir 15": MacOS Ventura > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // MacBookPro 15" mid-2012: MacOS El Capitan > Affinity v1 / MacOS Catalina > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // iPad 8th: iPadOS 16 > Affinity v2

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2 hours ago, anto said:

It's not obvious there at all. I want here

I think we have another thread on this somewhere.

You want something like InDesign where the master is identified with a label.

image.png.fa88c2dcf1f94f717d9043280f8beea8.png

Unlike InDesign, Affinity supports multiple masters for the same page and long master names so it's not as simple as showing A and B.

1557615565_Screenshot2023-01-19at10_17_17AM.png.06782b95d0156ba3a1c275baf77b4641.png

Still, I agree with you and I think it could be something that could be toggled on and off. The names could be superimposed on the thumbnails with a translucent background and truncated to fit the available space. The size of the thumbnail would dictate how many names could be shown so if you applied 100 masters it wouldn't scale but that's okay, just show the first ones that fit the space.

Alternatively, Publisher could allow us to assign a 1-character ID or colour to tag the master which could be optionally shown in the panel but then you'd have to remember that master D is the same as "Alternate photo layout" which isn't as intuitive.

Download a free manual for Publisher 2.4 from this forum - expanded 300-page PDF

My system: Affinity 2.4.0 for macOS Sonoma 14.4, MacBook Pro 14" (M1 Pro)

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43 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

How does the tool tip scale with 100 masters?

I believe it will show you as many as will fit vertically on the screen which is better than any names superimposed on the the thumbnail. So while it can't scale to unlimited, it can scale to far more than any other method.

There's no perfect solution but unless we want to stick to non-descriptive labels such as A, B, and C, or to use colour tags, there isn't a great solution. That being said, I still like the idea of having an option to superimpose the master names, truncated to fit, as a panel menu toggle, so that we can find mistakes more easily. I wouldn't want to keep that on, it would look terrible for those of us who write descriptive names and apply multiple masters to pages.

Download a free manual for Publisher 2.4 from this forum - expanded 300-page PDF

My system: Affinity 2.4.0 for macOS Sonoma 14.4, MacBook Pro 14" (M1 Pro)

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1 hour ago, davepmiddleton said:

If you're new to Publisher or coming from another DTP as InDesign, the Layers panel is not the most plausible place to look for a (nested) Master.

Publisher master pages ≠ ID master/parent pages
It's a different concept.

That's why one should study the basics of how the Affinity concepts and workflows function first. It's all complex tools. And those are not 1:1 clones of Adobe's workflows (or, more often than I would have ever thought, of Adobe workarounds).

Publisher's master pages are way more powerful. The killer feature being that apart from hierarchical master pages as known from ID, you can then apply a virtually unlimited amount of different master pages to any single given page.

Speaking of which, I just looked up Adobe's online help files for "Parent" pages: Apart from the new name, not much seems to have changed from what I know in ID CS5.5.

MacBookAir 15": MacOS Ventura > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // MacBookPro 15" mid-2012: MacOS El Capitan > Affinity v1 / MacOS Catalina > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // iPad 8th: iPadOS 16 > Affinity v2

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I agree that the concepts are different and better :) I have many reasons for using Affinity software and I love its approach. 

However, to get an overview of what Mater pages I applied to my pages, some indication in the Pages panel would be helpful. The layers panel will only give me the (nested) view of one page (spread) at a time.

I can think of displaying the parent Master next to the page; maybe as some auto-label only which corresponds to the Master with a name I chose.

 

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8 hours ago, davepmiddleton said:

to get an overview of what Mater pages I applied to my pages, some indication in the Pages panel would be helpful.

Definitely!
It's a similar issue like Brushes in ADe and APh on desktop where you can also only see the names via tooltips.

3 hours ago, anto said:

when click on any master and all pages with this master will hightlighted or selected.

And vice versa.

MacBookAir 15": MacOS Ventura > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // MacBookPro 15" mid-2012: MacOS El Capitan > Affinity v1 / MacOS Catalina > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // iPad 8th: iPadOS 16 > Affinity v2

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22 hours ago, loukash said:

Publisher master pages ≠ ID master/parent pages
It's a different concept.

(...)

Publisher's master pages are way more powerful. The killer feature being that apart from hierarchical master pages as known from ID, you can then apply a virtually unlimited amount of different master pages to any single given page.

If you really want to apply an "unlimited amount of different master pages to any single given page", you can do that in ID too, but 'just' to master pages + the resulting master applied to the single document page.

The main difference between the two concepts and a limitation of the possibilities for me is rather the lack of Global Layers in Affinity, which by default always arranges its master pages as the lowest layers on the document pages, while all layers of each applied master page are forced into the hierarchical position of their parent layer. This way you simply do not need the same amount of master pages as you do in Affinity, for instance ID enables you with 1 master only to have a page background image as lowest layer AND simultaneously a page number always as top layer on every document page. In Affinity you are forced to create + apply 2 separate master pages instead … and you get additionally in troubles to keep the top master layer on top of all pages while filling the pages with their individual layout.

From this 2 aspects it sounds weird to call APub's masters "way more powerful" or the Affinity concept a "killer feature" – unless you mean killing itself.

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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Just now, thomaso said:

If you really want to apply an "unlimited amount of different master pages to any single given page", you can do that in ID too, but 'just' to master pages + the resulting master applied to the single document page.

I know. And APu can do this as well. It's a different method though.

2 minutes ago, thomaso said:

the lack of Global Layers

That's a different topic, and there's already a dedicated thread. No need to go into anymore details here.

MacBookAir 15": MacOS Ventura > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // MacBookPro 15" mid-2012: MacOS El Capitan > Affinity v1 / MacOS Catalina > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // iPad 8th: iPadOS 16 > Affinity v2

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Just now, loukash said:

That's a different topic, and there's already a dedicated thread. No need to go into anymore details here.

It became necessary by your ID comparison respectively your statements for APub as "way more powerful" and "killer feature".

In fact I would prefer not to read odd comparisons and weird attributions that require further comments to prevent their marketing speech from misleading.

(p.s.: the handling of APub's master pages has several dedicated threads, too, right? This thread is about interface design, "No need to go into" master's usage:)

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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3 hours ago, thomaso said:

...in Affinity, which by default always arranges its master pages as the lowest layers on the document pages, while all layers of each applied master page are forced into the hierarchical position of their parent layer. This way you simply do not need the same amount of master pages as you do in Affinity, for instance ID enables you with 1 master only to have a page background image as lowest layer AND simultaneously a page number always as top layer on every document page. In Affinity you are forced to create + apply 2 separate master pages instead … and you get additionally in troubles to keep the top master layer on top of all pages while filling the pages with their individual layout.

It's rare that a page number needs to be above page-level objects which in turn are above master-level objects. But while it takes two masters, Affinity does allow you to do it.

I'm a fan of Affinity's model and prefer it to InDesign, it's such a simple layer stack that is easy for people to grasp. To each their own.

However, I think Affinity could use one more master feature that other apps had long ago - the ability to specify whether master objects should always be above page objects. In Publisher, page-level objects and layers are positioned in the stack above the master-level objects. This is a great default but as you've pointed out it's tiresome to keep the master objects at the top of the stack. Having this option would allow you to apply two masters, one that naturally went to the bottom of the stack and another that was anchored to the top of the stack.

Cheers

Download a free manual for Publisher 2.4 from this forum - expanded 300-page PDF

My system: Affinity 2.4.0 for macOS Sonoma 14.4, MacBook Pro 14" (M1 Pro)

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1 hour ago, MikeTO said:

It's rare that a page number needs to be above page-level objects which in turn are above master-level objects.

I'd say it is rather a common use case: As soon the layout contains individual page-level objects which exceed the margin / enter the bleed. That may occur quite likely in magazines, brochures, catalogues and photo or illustrated books for instance … which cover a wide range of projects that have page numbers.

Even if you use a full page picture frame on a master, you can't clip a placed image on a document page without the need to detach its master first. Additionally cumbersome: you need to scroll up in the Layers panel + select the parent master layer to choose "Edit detached" though you may currently have the placed image selected for editing.

(p.s.: "rare" … what kind of project did you have in mind above when you mentioned "applied 100 masters"?)

1 hour ago, MikeTO said:

the ability to specify whether master objects should always be above page objects

Well, this is halfway to Global Layers. It would allow top most + bottom layer position across an entire document, then still anywhere in between could be missing.

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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10 hours ago, thomaso said:

I'd say it is rather a common use case: As soon the layout contains individual page-level objects which exceed the margin / enter the bleed. That may occur quite likely in magazines, brochures, catalogues and photo or illustrated books for instance … which cover a wide range of projects that have page numbers.

I said rare because I believe the majority of documents created with page layout apps do not have page-level objects over which master-level objects such as page numbers need to be layered. If your work is primarily magazines and brochures then I can see how this would be frustrating. For the work I did long ago when I created work like that I chose an Always On Top setting in the app I was using. For the work I'm doing these days it would be of no use to me. I agree we need options to accommodate all types of work and workflows.

Cheers

Download a free manual for Publisher 2.4 from this forum - expanded 300-page PDF

My system: Affinity 2.4.0 for macOS Sonoma 14.4, MacBook Pro 14" (M1 Pro)

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19 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

I said rare because I believe the majority of documents created with page layout apps do not have

... a real need to use master pages at all 😇
… or even require a certain layer hierarchy because they don't have overlapping objects.

While a statistic of layout types (card, letter, brochure, etc) hardly exists any guess about all or an average of projects & users appears not useful respectively is simply misleading … whereas a statistic would be more reliable for the most frequent text colour printed in pure 100 K, for instance (… in case we would consider a usage statistic as an argument for a feature decision.)

But back to this topic and the various concerns about the request: What would be an average or reasonable max. number of master pages applied to document pages – and what would be the number for those situations where applying masters on masters first + then applying only 1-2 masters to document pages would be a more efficient workflow?

Also I wonder how relevant a verbose master page name would be in fact since every master has a visible layout, too. Which seems to be related to the question about a max/average number of used master pages (since "A", "B", "C" would be easier to remember than e.g. 25 master pages)(which reminds me to your "applied 100 masters" that I still can not imagine to ever happen).

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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@thomaso While Affinity allows virtually unlimited masters, it would be a rare project that would need more than a few masters applied at once and in practice it's actually difficult to do.

Descriptive master page names are a must for me, I've been using them for 30 years. Seeing the layout in the thumbnail is of no help for some projects. For each page in my current book I apply two masters - one for layout and one for chapter. While I can visually distinguish my layout masters, I can't visually distinguish my chapter masters for which the only visual difference is the position of the tab. At thumbnail size I can't differentiate chapter 2 from chapter 3.

We all have our own ways of working.

Download a free manual for Publisher 2.4 from this forum - expanded 300-page PDF

My system: Affinity 2.4.0 for macOS Sonoma 14.4, MacBook Pro 14" (M1 Pro)

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I think we're going a bit off tangent onto the myriad uses of master pages, rather than showing which master page is in use.

Whatever, it's interesting that people have different ideas about how master pages are used. I can't see myself ever applying 100 master pages to any page. Though I realise that number was probably mentioned to show a 'what if' scenario rather than something which is done regularly. Perhaps I am wrong?

Perhaps this is a difference in the way different people use master pages. You will see in my original post that I have master pages which are 'just different enough' (to each other). No doubt I could create a 'base' master page, then have some more master pages with just the different bits on, then apply them 2,3, 4, or 5 to a page. But that is not how I work. Instead I have one master page for each bundle of items that I want on it, and then apply just that one master page to a page. Does it mean that I have more master pages than if I was to use the multi masters? No, because I would need a master for each of those separate bits.

But this has given me something to think about.

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  • 1 year later...

Hi all,

Does the new version 2.4 of Publisher solve this problem?

Is it possible to see which master page is applied in the pages panel?

Maybe with a "label", the name of the master page or an abbreviation?

Ver-maestra-aplicada.png

Edited by joseb
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