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Setting up Text boxes in AD V1


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2 hours ago, R C-R said:

Actually, that is a very common way of expressing fractions, including but certainly not limited to elementary school math problems that ask students to reduce fractions like 12/14 by finding the greatest common factor ("GCF") & dividing numerator & denomination by that. It's about as "old school" as one can get. 😀

But all that is beside the point, which is a single number is all that is required to set line leading in digital typesetting. It can even be entered as a percent of the font's default leading.

Yes, 12/14 can be a (poorly expressed) fraction. In the context, as noted, when spec'ing type, it stands for point size of type on a specific size in points for leading.

2 hours ago, R C-R said:

What DTP apps do you know of that use that notation, typically or otherwise?

None. It's not about what an application uses for labeling fields. Simply about abbreviating point/leading values.

Speaking of archaic notation: Leading. While applications still use this archaic notion, which application wants you to insert differing thickness of actual lead between lines of type?

I mean, why shouldn't applications be more verbose and label such fields: Inter-paragraph line spacing...or some such gibberish?

I entered this thread just to let Walt know the abbrev. notation such as 12/14 is still taught and used. If you don't like the notation, don't use it.

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8 hours ago, thomaso said:

The difference is that the Character Panel is for "Leading Override" and applies to characters (lines of text) while the Paragraph Panel sets the "real" leading for entire paragraphs. To fix it in your sample (screenshots) you would choose "Auto" in the Character Panel, which will then display the same value as in the Paragraph panel (which, furthermore, lists more options to define the leading in relation to font size).

Usually you don't set or modify leading in the Character Panel, it is useful for certain situations only but then it's required. Quite a few users get confused by this option, just search in the forum for "Leading Override".

However, these two different interface fields have nothing to do with the typical notation "12/14" or "12/12" that indicates font size & paragraph leading.

OK I'll go for that. So if I want 12pt with no leading then I set 12pt in the Paragraph Tab and not use the Character Tab. Is that correct?

 

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AD version 2.3.0

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3 hours ago, MikeW said:

Yes, 12/14 can be a (poorly expressed) fraction. In the context, as noted, when spec'ing type, it stands for point size of type on a specific size in points for leading.

None. It's not about what an application uses for labeling fields. Simply about abbreviating point/leading values.

Speaking of archaic notation: Leading. While applications still use this archaic notion, which application wants you to insert differing thickness of actual lead between lines of type?

I mean, why shouldn't applications be more verbose and label such fields: Inter-paragraph line spacing...or some such gibberish?

I entered this thread just to let Walt know the abbrev. notation such as 12/14 is still taught and used. If you don't like the notation, don't use it.

LOL! In my life I have seen 1 word descriptions be replaced by many words like 'Have an nice day'  or 'Enjoy the rest of your day' for 'Bye'. Its the insincerity that annoys me. 'Down-sizing' for 'Smaller' or 'Let you go' for 'Fired' or 'Weight challenged' for 'Fat' etc.

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

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AD version 2.3.0

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5 hours ago, R C-R said:

 

8 hours ago, thomaso said:

 

 

8 hours ago, thomaso said:

 

Hi RC, I see your Avatar is still wearing a mask! Why is this? 

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.3.0

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7 hours ago, R C-R said:

What DTP apps do you know of that use that notation

None. Like @MikeW I know it from literature about typography, as in corporate design manuals or books or magazines about type. In apps two separate fields are common to make them easier to handle as two separate entries/values, while here the / is not a fraction, too, but is used in the meaning of "or" – although maths have with | a separate symbol for "or", and – is used as "minus".

2 hours ago, jackamus said:

OK I'll go for that. So if I want 12pt with no leading then I set 12pt in the Paragraph Tab and not use the Character Tab. Is that correct?

It depends what exactly you mean and seems to be answered above by @walt.farrell already. To me it is unclear (in digital DTP) whether "no leading" means leading = 0 or leading = font size. Personally I never heard or read your expression "12 on 12", which maybe caused by my primary language German where it is not used. I would write this as 12/12 and read or speak it as "twelve twelve" (without any separator).

I recommend to experiment with the various options listed in the Paragraph panel's menu, especially because they do calculations in the app's background ("Exactly" excepted) and also influence a manual entry.

leading.jpg.566c91d3cdd61883ab63b334b429749e.jpg

Affinity is coded to use 120% of the font size as its default for leading. You may write the leading value in various ways in the leading field (e.g. as % or mm or pt or as formula like a fraction of whatever), then Affinity always calculates and displays the resulting value as absolute value according to your currently set unit for ruler and document respectively your selected app preference for text unit.

303480427_textunit.jpg.2855b6bc02a7873ef86fe9f3be4a28fb.jpg

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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8 minutes ago, thomaso said:

None. Like Mike I know it from literature about typography, as in corporate design manuals or books or magazines about type. In apps two separate fields are common to make them easier to handle as two separate entries/values, while here the / is not a fraction, too, but is used in the meaning of "or" – although maths have with | a separate symbol for "or", and – is used as "minus".

It depends what exactly you mean and seems to be answered above by @walt.farrell already. To me it is unclear whether "no leading" means leading = 0 or leading = font size. Personally I never heard or read your expression "12 on 12", which maybe caused by my primary language German where it is not used. I would write this as 12/12 and read or speak it as "twelve twelve" (without any separator).

I recommend to experiment with the various options listed in the Paragraph panel's menu, especially because they do calculations in the app's background ("Exactly" excepted) and also influence a manual entry.

leading.jpg.566c91d3cdd61883ab63b334b429749e.jpg

Affinity is coded to use 120% of the font size as its default for leading. You may write the leading value in various ways in the leading field (e.g. as % or mm or pt or as formula like a fraction of whatever), then Affinity always calculates and displays the resulting value as absolute value according to your currently set unit for ruler and document respectively your selected app preference for text unit.

303480427_textunit.jpg.2855b6bc02a7873ef86fe9f3be4a28fb.jpg

What I don't understand is why Affinity arbitrarily chooses 120% of font size for leading! Surely it makes more sense to allow the designer to choose his own leading? The designer would know that when he chooses a font size that the leading is 'zero' and can then choose his own leading. Again I'm saying that Serif are trying to reinvent the wheel and complicating something which is very simple.

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.3.0

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10 minutes ago, jackamus said:

What I don't understand is why Affinity arbitrarily chooses 120% of font size for leading! Surely it makes more sense to allow the designer to choose his own leading? The designer would know that when he chooses a font size that the leading is 'zero' and can then choose his own leading. Again I'm saying that Serif are trying to reinvent the wheel and complicating something which is very simple.

Perhaps the 120% is for compatibility with originating text coming from word processors, where it's been a default.

But, in the end, you can do what I did and just delete the as-shipped default text styles and create your own however you want and set them as default text styles for all future publications.

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2 minutes ago, jackamus said:

What I don't understand is why Affinity arbitrarily chooses 120% of font size for leading!

This is "just" a matter of common sense resulting from taste: a leading equal to the font size (= 100%) most often feels too narrow. I assume in printed books a leading = 100% of font size is never used. – Additionally you must consider that different digital font files can use different heights for both size and "flesh", so a leading of 100% can result in different line spacing even with same 12 pt font size setting.

You can easily define your own app Default in Affinity by using the menu Edit > Defaults > Save, which will also set the values for "[No Style]" in the Text Style panel.

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I have read all the responses and am totally confused by how such a simple thing can be so complicated!

This is how I have finished-up to get it to work for me every time. I create a text, box, I set a font style and font size in this case 12pt) and the line spacing (14pt) in the 'Character Tab'. Then in the Paragraph Tab I set the under paragraph space to 12pt which basically is like 'double spacing'.

One of the problems I have is that I need to match my text box content to match someone else's which was generated in an old Serif 'PagePlus' app.

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.3.0

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12 minutes ago, MikeW said:

Perhaps the 120% is for compatibility with originating text coming from word processors, where it's been a default.

But, in the end, you can do what I did and just delete the as-shipped default text styles and create your own however you want and set them as default text styles for all future publications.

That makes sense. Its a legacy from an inferior typesetting system!

That's interesting re setting my own 'Default' font size 12pt for the 'Leading' box in the Paragraph Tab. If I were to do that would this default size change to 14pt if I chose a font size of 14pt or will it set itself to Affinity's default 14pt?

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.3.0

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4 minutes ago, jackamus said:

That makes sense. Its a legacy from an inferior typesetting system!

That's interesting re setting my own 'Default' font size 12pt for the 'Leading' box in the Paragraph Tab. If I were to do that would this default size change to 14pt if I chose a font size of 14pt or will it set itself to Affinity's default 14pt?

If you set a paragraph style to be say 10pt, and set that paragraph styles leading to say 11pt, then subsequently change the point size for the text to say 14pt, the leading will still be 11pt. So the leading value would also need changed.

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2 minutes ago, MikeW said:

If you set a paragraph style to be say 10pt, and set that paragraph styles leading to say 11pt, then subsequently change the point size for the text to say 14pt, the leading will still be 11pt. So the leading value would also need changed.

2 minutes ago, MikeW said:

You're confirming my view that Affinity's system for typography is needlesly complicated!

Why is there a need to set the text style in 2 different tabs that do not appear to communicate with each other? It should not be possible for one set of settings to create a 'clash' with another set of settings - they should interact together.

As I see it the minimum setting for a paragraph space should be the same as a 'soft return' plus whatever leading you want to add. Anything less would cause the new paragraph line to overlap the line above it.

11 hours ago, thomaso said:

 

 

11 hours ago, thomaso said:

 

 

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.3.0

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41 minutes ago, jackamus said:

I have read all the responses and am totally confused by how such a simple thing can be so complicated!

This is how I have finished-up to get it to work for me every time. I create a text, box, I set a font style and font size in this case 12pt) and the line spacing (14pt) in the 'Character Tab'. Then in the Paragraph Tab I set the under paragraph space to 12pt which basically is like 'double spacing'.

It gets complicated because you set the leading with no need on two different spots in the interface while one influences the other but not vice versa. This coded and offered complexity has a good reason and is required for quite specific situations, never for general use.

As mentioned before (maybe you meant to quote this in your empty quotations?) the Character panel is not the right spot for paragraph leading. It is called "leading override" because it overrides your setting in the paragraph panel (which then gets ignored / does not matter / has no influence / can be set to zero).

Recommendation again: simply enter "()" in this field in the Character panel (or choose "Auto") and don't use this field again – unless you literally want a specific part of text (e.g. a line only) to use another leading than the one you have set in the Paragraph panel.

EDIT: By the way: a similar possibly confusing complexity is caused on purpose with a) the baseline grid (versus leading) and b) additionally with the various spots in the interface to set a baseline grid.

Edited by thomaso

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If you use text styles, there is no to little need to even look at the paragraph or character tabs. Font and leading are set in the paragraph style.

My default for the text style named Body uses 12pt text. The leading has a value of 1 (= 100%). If I opt to change the Body text style's font or its point size, the leading then accounts for this.

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1 hour ago, jackamus said:

What I don't understand is why Affinity arbitrarily chooses 120% of font size for leading!

Quite simply: In the course of DTP history it has turned out that a line spacing of 120 percent of the font size is the best to read (fatigue-free reading of bulk text).

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21 minutes ago, Michail said:

Quite simply: In the course of DTP history it has turned out that a line spacing of 120 percent of the font size is the best to read (fatigue-free reading of bulk text).

Again I say this has to be a designer's choice and not a 'consensus' opinion. I would imagine that a serious book designer would know this and adjust his leading to suit. He just needs the basic tools and then use his skill.

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.3.0

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2 hours ago, jackamus said:

What I don't understand is why Affinity arbitrarily chooses 120% of font size for leading!

In my experience, it doesn't.

It uses a specific value dependent on the font you're using, and derived from the metrics encoded into that font by the font designer. It may be 120% for some fonts, but different for others.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
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37 minutes ago, jackamus said:

Again I say this has to be a designer's choice and not a 'consensus' opinion. I would imagine that a serious book designer would know this and adjust his leading to suit. He just needs the basic tools and then use his skill.

Any default value is the result of a "consensus" opinion, even 100% line spacing would be. Consider that a text without any formatting would not appear on screen and thus MUST have a certain font face, size, leading, colour etc. – Even the [No style] option doesn't have no style assigned but requires default values … which you may customize at any time, either temporarily or permanently. It is in fact up to you as the designer – while the flexibility also increases complexity.

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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19 minutes ago, jackamus said:

Again I say this has to be a designer's choice and not a 'consensus' opinion. I would imagine that a serious book designer would know this and adjust his leading to suit. He just needs the basic tools and then use his skill.

Even a user who does not know the inherent connections still wants to design appealing text.

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29 minutes ago, jackamus said:

Again I say this has to be a designer's choice and not a 'consensus' opinion. I would imagine that a serious book designer would know this and adjust his leading to suit. He just needs the basic tools and then use his skill.

This area of text styles/formatting does have the "tools" to do what you desire. So why not just do it and be done with it?

Serif, Quark, Adobe, et al, need to ship with default settings. Whether they choose what I consider my defaults is not relevant as long as I can change their as-shipped defaults and save them for my default usage. Which you can too.

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30 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

In my experience, it doesn't.

It uses a specific value dependent on the font you're using, and derived from the metrics encoded into that font by the font designer. It may be 120% for some fonts, but different for others.

It is easy to verify this: just set up a text frame with filler text, open the Paragraph panel, make sure Leading is set to the default, & change the font a few times without changing the point size. So for instance, on my Mac, Arial 12 pt defaults to 12.4 pt leading, Helvetica to 12 pt, Optima to 12.3 pt, Tekton Pro to 14.4 pt, & so on.

 

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26 minutes ago, MikeW said:

This area of text styles/formatting does have the "tools" to do what you desire. So why not just do it and be done with it?

Serif, Quark, Adobe, et al, need to ship with default settings. Whether they choose what I consider my defaults is not relevant as long as I can change their as-shipped defaults and save them for my default usage. Which you can too.

26 minutes ago, MikeW said:

This area of text styles/formatting does have the "tools" to do what you desire. So why not just do it and be done with it?

Serif, Quark, Adobe, et al, need to ship with default settings. Whether they choose what I consider my defaults is not relevant as long as I can change their as-shipped defaults and save them for my default usage. Which you can too.

13 hours ago, thomaso said:

Prior to DTP there were no defaults other than 1 Point was 1/72" and that horizontal spacing was measured in 'Ems' which was the width of a 12pt letter 'M'. You could steel rules called 'M Rules' for measuring the width of a line.

Is it not possible to code for a dimension called a 'Point' which is equal to 1/72 of an inch and that all line spacing including paragraphs are multiples of Points? I'm not sure how horizontal letter spacing was done but I imagine it was by inserting lead.

 

 

 

13 hours ago, thomaso said:

 

 

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.3.0

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2 hours ago, jackamus said:

I have read all the responses and am totally confused by how such a simple thing can be so complicated!

This is how I have finished-up to get it to work for me every time. I create a text, box, I set a font style and font size in this case 12pt) and the line spacing (14pt) in the 'Character Tab'. Then in the Paragraph Tab I set the under paragraph space to 12pt which basically is like 'double spacing'.

You are not setting line spacing (a.k.a. leading) in the Character tab. There you are setting Leading Override , which allows you to override the paragraph leading for selected characters or words. This of course results in the leading for the entire line with those characters being overridden to a larger value, since leading is actually a property of a line of text, just like it is for manual typesetting. 

All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
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1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7

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3 minutes ago, jackamus said:

 

 

Not sure what you were saying there. I think that's at least the second time in this thread you've quoted some other users' posts and don't seem to have added a comment of your own.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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2 minutes ago, jackamus said:

Prior to DTP there were no defaults other than 1 Point was 1/72"....

Actually, historically there were quite a few different standards in use for the size of a point. It is the so-called Desktop publishing point that has (more or less) become the international standard.

All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
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