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Setting up Text boxes in AD V1


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I have only just started to use Text boxes as I am writing an illustrated article.

I have chosen to use a 12pt font. What is the difference between the 'Default Leading' figure of 12.51 shown in the Paragraph Tab and the 12pt on 12pt chosen in the Character Tab?

To me paragraph spacing and character line spacing are not connected.

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Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.3.0

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1 hour ago, jackamus said:

What is the difference between the 'Default Leading' figure of 12.51 shown in the Paragraph Tab and the 12pt on 12pt chosen in the Character Tab?

Can you please provide us with screenshots of the panels paragraph and characters? Then we can better understand what exactly you mean.

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Yes, screen shots would be nice to help understand.

However, as a general hint, the leading for a given font size will generally be larger than the font size itself, as you need/want some space between lines.

But if you're talking about the Character panel, and Leading, we also need to be sure you aren't using Leading Override. Your Leading should be set in the Paragraph panel (or the Context Toolbar) and generally you should probably start with the default values provided by the program.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

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Yes it would have been better to include screen shots which I have now rectified.

Tabs.afdesign

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.3.0

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Thanks. By the way, the best screenshots are generally simple JPG or PNG files, as your OS probably creates them when you tell it to make a screenshot. Then we can see them directly in the discussion, without needing to download a file and open an application :) 

The 12 value in the Character panel looks like something you specified. The default value would have matched the value shown in the Paragraph panel, except that the [12.51] from the Paragraph panel would show as (12.51) in the Character panel. Note the [] in Paragraph and the () in Character for values that are set automatically. Lacking the (), your value of 12 indicates a manual setting. You don't want to do that. Setting it back (probably to Auto via the pulldown) would be best.

 

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
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See:

... or use one of the xx third party screenshot & screenrecording tools available for MacOS, there are also a bunch of free ones!

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14 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Thanks. By the way, the best screenshots are generally simple JPG or PNG files, as your OS probably creates them when you tell it to make a screenshot. Then we can see them directly in the discussion, without needing to download a file and open an application :) 

The 12 value in the Character panel looks like something you specified. The default value would have matched the value shown in the Paragraph panel, except that the [12.51] from the Paragraph panel would show as (12.51) in the Character panel. Note the [] in Paragraph and the () in Character for values that are set automatically. Lacking the (), your value of 12 indicates a manual setting. You don't want to do that. Setting it back (probably to Auto via the pulldown) would be best.

 

Thanks Walt.

The reason I don't just send a screen shot is because I want to crop-out all the irrelevant clutter round the part concerned. Is there a way to do this without cropping?

It would be easier for me to ask you to send me a screen shot or file showing a text box using a 12pt on 14pt i.e. 2pt leading and a 12p paragraph space.

Another question is how do I create a 'soft return' i.e.Shift+return to create a new line in a paragraph that is justified without the last line then being badly spaced?

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.3.0

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Screen shot attached showing an example of my last question. The lower text box has had a soft return added.

Screenshot 2023-01-11 at 16.35.47.png

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.3.0

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27 minutes ago, jackamus said:

The reason I don't just send a screen shot is because I want to crop-out all the irrelevant clutter round the part concerned. Is there a way to do this without cropping?

It's also often best to provide the complete application window :) 

But you can take JPG or PNG screenshots, crop them in an application, and resave them as JPG/PNG, and provide those. Or use an application that lets you screenshot part of a page.

28 minutes ago, jackamus said:

It would be easier for me to ask you to send me a screen shot or file showing a text box using a 12pt on 14pt i.e. 2pt leading and a 12p paragraph space.

Why do you want that? Why not trust the font designer to set the proper metrics for normal use. You set the font size, and the Affinity app will set an appropriate leading, based on the font metrics provided by the font designer.

But if you wanted that, just set the paragraph leading to 14 point, or set a 14-point Baseline Grid in Publisher. 

31 minutes ago, jackamus said:

Another question is how do I create a 'soft return' i.e.Shift+return to create a new line in a paragraph that is justified without the last line then being badly spaced?

Don't use Justify All. Use Justify Left.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
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OK Walt I'll bear that in mind for the future.

With respect I'm the designer and not AD! I want what I want. My typography goes back way before DTP and it's complicated and too much choice way of tdoing things. Character, line and paragraph spacing was all done using leading. If you wanted 2pt line spacing it would have been referred to as 12pt on 14pt. Line lengths were measured using an 'M' rule. In fact this system was still used in the very early days of computer typesetting.

It was only when companies found that they could use the office secretary to type out their printed matter and sat then in front of a DTP computer. Skilled typographers were no longer needed! Once the secretary was able to understand all the different aspects of DTP then if the type didn't fit they just stretch it! If an image didn't fit then they just stretch it. That's graphic design went downhill!

Just sayin'.

I tried to Justify left but that didn't seem to work. When are you supposed to apply such a command, when you create a text box or when you type in it? Do you have to select the txt and apply it?

 

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.3.0

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9 minutes ago, jackamus said:

I tried to Justify left but that didn't seem to work. When are you supposed to apply such a command, when you create a text box or when you type in it? Do you have to select the txt and apply it?

When you set the Justification in the first place. Or assign it to the text that has the problem.

10 minutes ago, jackamus said:

If you wanted 2pt line spacing it would have been referred to as 12pt on 14pt

If you want 14 pt between the base lines, that is 14 pt leading. And you want to set it for the Paragraph, not in the Character panel.

But remember that 12 pt in one font will be a different apparent size than 12 point in a different font. So a leading that works with one font may not work with another. That's why I prefer to start with what the font designer determined was a good appearance, and adjust from there. But use Leading (Paragraph panel), not Leading Override (Character panel) to avoid surprises.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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12 minutes ago, jackamus said:

I tried to Justify left but that didn't seem to work. When are you supposed to apply such a command, when you create a text box or when you type in it? Do you have to select the txt and apply it?

When you set the Justification in the first place. Or assign it to the text that has the problem.

12 minutes ago, jackamus said:

If you wanted 2pt line spacing it would have been referred to as 12pt on 14pt

If you want 14 pt between the base lines, that is 14 pt leading. And you want to set it for the Paragraph, not in the Character panel.

But remember that 12 pt in one font will be a different apparent size than 12 point in a different font. So a leading that works with one font may not work with another. That's why I prefer to start with what the font designer determined was a good appearance, and adjust from there. But use Leading (Paragraph panel), not Leading Override (Character panel) to avoid surprises.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

When you set the Justification in the first place. Or assign it to the text that has the problem.

If you want 14 pt between the base lines, that is 14 pt leading. And you want to set it for the Paragraph, not in the Character panel.

But remember that 12 pt in one font will be a different apparent size than 12 point in a different font. So a leading that works with one font may not work with another. That's why I prefer to start with what the font designer determined was a good appearance, and adjust from there. But use Leading (Paragraph panel), not Leading Override (Character panel) to avoid surprises.

No Walt that is not what I said! I'll say it another way. 2pt leading is the same as saying 12pt on 14pt. That's the way we used to state 2pt leading.

As I understood it the font designer designed the font which included the space under the character which determined the minimum line spacing. Its up to the typographer if he wants add more line space. The old style lead fonts did not allow the removal of the minimum space between lines but DTP can let you overlap lines if you so desire! I can understand removing space from between lines of capital letters to make it look less gappy but not when its u/l case.

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.3.0

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34 minutes ago, jackamus said:

2pt leading is the same as saying 12pt on 14pt. That's the way we used to state 2pt leading.

But "2 pt leading" is for physical leading, not digital, and no one speaks that way in modern times (that I know of, anyway).

It sounds like you would add 2 pt of lead on top of the 12 pt type, for a total of 14 pt. To get that digitally, I think you would use 14 pt leading, or a 14 pt Baseline Grid.

 

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

But "2 pt leading" is for physical leading, not digital, and no one speaks that way in modern times (that I know of, anyway).

It sounds like you would add 2 pt of lead on top of the 12 pt type, for a total of 14 pt. To get that digitally, I think you would use 14 pt leading, or a 14 pt Baseline Grid.

 

12/14 is how type is still spec'd, in this case. It's taught that way still and is so used in every branding guide I've ever been sent. 

It's up to the user to understand that and how it applies to software. 

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1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

But "2 pt leading" is for physical leading, not digital, and no one speaks that way in modern times (that I know of, anyway).

It sounds like you would add 2 pt of lead on top of the 12 pt type, for a total of 14 pt. To get that digitally, I think you would use 14 pt leading, or a 14 pt Baseline Grid.

 

Hi Walt, yes I realise that we are talking about a change of standards in the way typography is done. I'm trying to bridge the 2 different systems. That way I question the modern way of typography is only because I'm trying to understand why things change the way they do. Most of the time I think the modern world is constantly reinventing the wheel. The end result is still always the same - the wheel rolls and type is read.

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.3.0

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36 minutes ago, jackamus said:

That way I question the modern way of typography is only because I'm trying to understand why things change the way they do.

For the leading spec, perhaps it is as simple as requiring fewer characters to specify it, or that things like 12/14 could be interpreted as a single fractional number?

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39 minutes ago, R C-R said:

... or that things like 12/14 could be interpreted as a single fractional number?

Context is everything. 

An example would be like:

Sabon 12/14

Either directly beside example type, or an arrow pointing to example type.

While you might confuse such notation as a fraction, a person setting type, at least with some experience or explanation, would not be. 

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In a desktop publishing app why use more space than is necessary for a simple numeric entry field like leading? There should be no ambiguity, no confusion with fractions even for those who have never done any typesetting.

Besides, a paragraph or line can have a mix of different fonts &  text point sizes, so something like "Sabon 12/14" would not necessarily mean much.

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30 minutes ago, MikeW said:

(not a fraction)

So what do you mean by this, as far as the Affinity interface goes? Should there be a popup tooltip saying "(not a fraction)" or a text explanation in the panel or what?

Basically, it's just a matter of simple & straightforward is the best approach for things like this, & a single number is about as simple & unambiguous as it gets.

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11 hours ago, jackamus said:

I have chosen to use a 12pt font. What is the difference between the 'Default Leading' figure of 12.51 shown in the Paragraph Tab and the 12pt on 12pt chosen in the Character Tab?

The difference is that the Character Panel is for "Leading Override" and applies to characters (lines of text) while the Paragraph Panel sets the "real" leading for entire paragraphs. To fix it in your sample (screenshots) you would choose "Auto" in the Character Panel, which will then display the same value as in the Paragraph panel (which, furthermore, lists more options to define the leading in relation to font size).

Usually you don't set or modify leading in the Character Panel, it is useful for certain situations only but then it's required. Quite a few users get confused by this option, just search in the forum for "Leading Override".

However, these two different interface fields have nothing to do with the typical notation "12/14" or "12/12" that indicates font size & paragraph leading.

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2 hours ago, MikeW said:

You kept calling it a fraction. It's not a fraction. That's all.

Actually, that is a very common way of expressing fractions, including but certainly not limited to elementary school math problems that ask students to reduce fractions like 12/14 by finding the greatest common factor ("GCF") & dividing numerator & denomination by that. It's about as "old school" as one can get. 😀

But all that is beside the point, which is a single number is all that is required to set line leading in digital typesetting. It can even be entered as a percent of the font's default leading.

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2 hours ago, thomaso said:

However, these two different interface fields have nothing to do with the typical notation "12/14" or "12/12" that indicates font size & paragraph leading.

What DTP apps do you know of that use that notation, typically or otherwise?

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