Can you do a "Global" soft proof in Publisher?

[Ldina]

I know you can add a Soft Proof Layer Adjustment to a specific page in Publisher. That's fine for a single spread or a small document.

But, what if you have a document that has 10, 20 or 50 pages? Do you have to add that same exact soft proof adjustment layer to every single page individually in order to soft proof the entire document? That would be a waste of time and effort, since the entire document will presumably be printed using the same output device, paper, ink and profile.

Is there a way to add a "single" Soft Proof Adjustment Layer that soft proofs all pages in the document? 

And for clarification, I assume each placed or embedded element in the Publisher document (jpg, png, psd, ai, afdesign, etc) will have its own profile and will be converted using its embedded color space to the destinations color space. For example, there may be different linked images in the Publisher file, each with different embedded profiles...e.g., Adobe RGB, sRGB, grayscale, various flavors of CMYK, etc. Each element needs to be converted using its embedded profile as the source, to the destinations profile using the specified rendering intent. I'm also assuming all elements created inside the Publisher document itself will use the document's color space as the source, right?

Thanks for any feedback. 

 

[v_kyr]

See related:

 

[Ldina]

v_kyr,

Thanks for the link, which didn’t show up in my search. Interesting discussion.

Seem to me Publisher needs a simple Global soft proof setup for the entire document instead of a convoluted workaround prone to error or layer stacking order, grouping, etc. It’s so fast and easy with InDesign. Also, with InDesign, you can assign separate color spaces and rendering intents to individual placed images so each image is converted to the destination print space optimally and looks it’s best when printed. One image may look best using perceptual intent, and another with Relative Colorimetric. Without these capabilities, one needs to convert all images to the final destination print space in the original authoring application before placing the image in Publisher. That”s a time consuming, inefficient way to work and makes it difficult to repurpose a design for different output spaces. What if the client decides to change printers late in the game and and that printer requires a different profile?

Serif needs to rethink this, in my opinion. 

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, Ldina said:

One image may look best using perceptual intent, and another with Relative Colorimetric.

This reminds me to another (long) thread about soft proof issues or limitations. Maybe this post of Dan (Serif) is a good place to see if it feels relevant for you:

[loukash]

8 hours ago, Ldina said:

Is there a way to add a "single" Soft Proof Adjustment Layer that soft proofs all pages in the document? 

There is a way via Master pages:

 

Caveat:

To be truly a global effect – as in "one click on, one click off" – it seems that all content must be in the child master page(s) of the Soft Proof Master. Then you can globally turn it on an off from any page you're currently at.
Logically, individual content placed directly on top level of any individual page won't be affected globally, as Affinity layers are hierarchical. 

The "self-grouped" Soft proof on a separate master page layer – as outlined in the other thread – still needs to be turned on and off individually for each page. Not sure if it's a bug or a feature.

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[Ldina]

@loutish, thanks for your post. I need some time to review what you have suggested and will give it a try.

@lacerto, I wasn't clear on everything you shared, so my response may miss what you were trying to get across. Setting up the Publisher document in the final CMYK press color space is an "early binding" workflow. In this workflow, all images, illustrations, etc, are typically converted to this final CMYK ICC profile, using the ideal rendering intent for each individual image, before placing into Publisher. That works fine as long as the final print space remains the fixed. What if a printer hasn't yet been selected? What CMYK profile do you use? What if the 2nd press run is sent to a completely different printer who requests a completely different press profile? I often use the same page layout file for multiple outputs...printing presses, sRGB PDF files, wider gamut RGB spaces for inkjet printing, etc. If I force everything to fit into a smaller CMYK color space from the start, I'm stuck with that smaller gamut, even for RGB output which is capable of a much larger gamut.

Another way of working is a "late binding workflow", where you set up the page layout document with a wider gamut RGB space (for example, Adobe RGB), which preserves more color gamut in native elements and placed files, so the design can be repurposed for multiple output devices. This way, one can place images with multiple color spaces and profiles into Publisher...sRGB, Adobe RGB, ROMM RGB, grayscale, Lab, or even CMYK (though I try to avoid CMYK to CMYK conversions if possible). As long as each placed element's embedded profile is recognized and honored by Publisher, and as long as you can set each item's rendering intent individually inside of Publisher, and as long as Publisher will convert each element using its  parameters, a global soft proof will show you what your design will look like using any output device's ICC profile. When the final output device is determined, THEN I Export to PDF late in the game to the final destination workspace. This insures I get the most accurate color and the widest possible color gamut that particular destination device is able to render. The original Publisher document and all placed images remain in their pristine, wide gamut color space, making it possible to repurpose quickly and easily.  An accurate monitor soft proof requires a wide gamut, well-calibrated monitor, which has a larger gamut than the final output space. That's the way my system is set up and it's the way I work. My press proof simulations (on my monitor and on my inlet printer) are usually a near-perfect match to press output using this workflow in InDesign.

Soft proofing a single image in Affinity Designer or Affinity Photo works fine, and adding a soft proof layer at the top of the layer stack on a single image is no big deal. For a Page Layout program with dozens or hundreds of placed images and illustrations, I believe a different color management strategy is required. In my opinion, Adobe has this right with Indesign. It's flexible, fast, easy and accurate. 

For RGB output ONLY (PDFs for the internet, etc), Publisher works fine for my needs. For press work, I'm not yet convinced Publisher is ready for primetime. I used a late binding workflow, which to me, is more flexible and preferable. 

[Ldina]

@loukash…I was finally able to make the master page soft proofing work, but it took quite some time to figure out how to do it. Your video helped. That’s a step in the right direction.

I wasn’t able to find any way to assign “object level rendering intents” to individual placed images and I’m assuming Publisher doesn’t support that. Some images convert better using perceptual intent and others convert best using colorimetric intent. Without object level rendering intents, one is forced to choose one or another. The only workaround I currently see is to do all the conversions in the authoring application before placing them in Publisher. This is time consuming and enforces an early-binding workflow. 

Thanks again for the video.

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[thomaso]

24 minutes ago, lacerto said:

A typical workflow would be placing RGB content (images), and also use RGB color definitions for native objects if desired

Does this work in Affinity? I am not able to export an RGB .afpub with some 100 M, 100 C, 100 K elements correctly as PDF/X-4. – How would an RGB .afpub be used if I need to maintain a client's corporate 100 M for instance or want to achieve a print with 2-3 inks only?

rgb > cmyk.pdf

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[thomaso]

18 minutes ago, lacerto said:

Your document however shows PSO Coated v3 so something else has happened in your export (…)

EDIT: Perhaps you specified CMYK, and then also specified the profile?

Yes, the .afpub was rgb > cmyk.afpub
• set to sRGB,
• colours as CMYK (+ 1 Pantone),
• exported as X-4
• with CMYK + PSO Coated v3.

Good to see it works in your PDF. – I assume the different output intent doesn't cause my conversion issue from RGB, – but what makes the difference? Would you mind to upload your sample as V1 .afpub?

[Ldina]

Thanks for all the helpful posts.

@lacerto...Frankly, my head is swimming at this point, and I have a lot of confusion about Publisher, so maybe the way I am accustomed to working doesn't translate well to this environment. I haven't wrapped my head around the many differences between Affinity and Adobe, especially with Publisher and InDesign and their handling of color management. I'll need to understand it better to find a suitable workflow. I got good, predictable results with InDesign, but it seems I'm comparing apples and oranges, at least to some degree. 

I'll have to mull all this over and see if I can make more sense of it. Anyway, thanks. 

[thomaso]

14 hours ago, lacerto said:

If you do not have pixel layers in your Publisher document, you could also switch between different color modes (RGB and CMYK), or assign different color profiles (e.g. coated, uncoated and newspaper ICCs) within the same color mode, without causing change of color values (just causing change in visual appearance of colors).

@Ldina, for your current soft proof question this hint of @Lacerto may be a helpful 'summary' and easy do use / try. The important part for that version of a non-destructive soft proof workflow is the term "assign", which refers to the "Document Setup". Unfortunately, this window always opens with "Convert" activated, regardless how you have left this window by pressing "OK" before. Once you forgot to press "assign" you can undo the conversion via the Undo History panel.

37 minutes ago, Ldina said:

apples and oranges

Concerning colours there are a few fundamental differences which might not be obvious or may confuse.
For instance …
… the handling of colour swatches, colour palettes, global colours, spot and overprint swatch properties
… the Lock button in the Colours panel,
… the limited abilities with spot colours in layout and export,
… the missing option "preserve colour values" on export,
… the handling of 100 K.

Each of them has various threads in the forum, some in 'Feature Requests', more in 'Questions'.

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[thomaso]

6 hours ago, lacerto said:

Additionally, as shown in this post, if you intend to work in RGB color mode, you need to be careful to not create a conflicting CMYK export, causing all CMYK definitions to be recalculated (as seemed to have happen when you exported your PSO Coated v3 in RGB color mode).

Thank you! for the video, it makes the difference obvious: I had not changed the documents RGB colour space & profile but only selected CMYK as export space + PSO Coated v3 as export profile.

The way of changing the documents profile first (even with "assign" instead of "convert") to get an RGB document properly exported as CMYK appears odd to me. I would expect Affinity would do the correct conversion during the export process 'just' according to the export settings. Actually this Affinity requirement to modify the document colour space before & as export colour space reduces the advantage of RGB as document working space.

But it is definitely good to know this workflow option.

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[thomaso]

22 hours ago, lacerto said:

At the same time, a document always also gets a latent (implied) secondary (in this case CMYK) target profile, and this will be the profile defined in the Preferences > Color. In my case, this would be ISO Coated v2.

Thanks again! Not your video was poorly demonstrating but myself failed to notice your document reset from CMYK to its initial RGB/sRGB at 0:51 – 0:56 min.

Yes, I can confirm this workflow maintains CMYK values without the need to switch the document colour space if  the app preference is set to the desired export profile (= output intent for PDF/X). Also this method appears to maintain the original profiles of placed resources on export as expected if "Convert image colour spaces" in the 'More' options is unticked (as it is in the default X-3 / X-4 export presets) … while the buggy, limited 'BlendingColorSpace' still may cause issues.

So unwanted conversion of colour definitions appears to be mainly a lack of a clear, unambiguous Affinity interface, especially the wording "Use document profile" in the 'More' options seems actually to mean "Use the profile currently set in the app's colour management preference" if the document is still set to RGB and contains objects in CMYK colour definition which do not get converted this way (~ 'preserve values').

In addition the "Convert" button visually pressed by default in the 'Document Setup' is misleading by implying a conversion will happen in every case with the current setting, especially if the user has set a profile with "Assign" + closed this window with "Okay" this interface misleads as soon the window gets reopened again.

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[Ldina]

Tomaso and Lacerto...

Thank you for continuing this conversation, as I learned a lot from your dialog. I dropped out for a while because I had to catch up a little (I'm still not there!).

The way Publisher handles color is quite different from InDesign and I'm so used to InDesign, that this takes some getting used to. One (of many) important thing that I didn't understand was that a placed "Images" and "Pixel layers" are different in Affinity. Another is the ability to assign a rendering intent to a placed image in InDesign, which I don't see, or can't find, in Publisher. Things aren't yet fully clear to me, but some of the fog is lifting. 

You may have answered this in your discussion, but I haven't quite got it yet. If I want to design an 8-page brochure that I will send to press AND export as an RGB PDF, how do I do that to retain the maximum color gamut for the CMYK Press PDF and the maximum gamut for the sRGB PDF? In other words, I don't want any RGB images, native elements, etc, clipped to a CMYK gamut before creating my sRGB PDF file. Is that possible? Can I just switch modes back and forth at will in Publisher before making my exports...i.e., RGB mode for the RGB PDF, and CMYK mode for the press export.

Thanks.

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[loukash]

2 hours ago, Ldina said:

The way Publisher handles color is quite different from InDesign and I'm so used to InDesign, that this takes some getting used to.

I hear you! It was a long process for me as well.

[Ldina]

@loukash You've got that right! It is a process, but I'm getting there gradually. And thank you for your helpful posts, on numerous subjects!

@lacerto Thank you for the in-depth and very helpful explanations. I prefer all this detail because prepping a job for a press can be complicated and there are so many places where one can mess up the files. With the help of this discussion, I am getting a handle on it. I totally appreciate the need for 100K text, line art, corporate colors, etc. It is also helpful to know that placing an AI with an embedded CMYK profile can result in unwanted conversions because I design brochures for engineering companies with a lot of line art. I guess the safest route with Publisher is to place AI and PDF files without embedded CMYK profiles. I'll definitely experiment.

So, if I have any native colors that I want to print in specific CMYK colors, just define them in the color picker using the CMYK boxes, regardless of my currently selected color space. Now I understand what I didn't in a few of your original posts. It's a very different model.

When editing photos in Photoshop, I was accustomed to editing in Adobe RGB, then doing a soft proof and checking whether the image would convert better to the destination CMYK space using Perceptual or Colorimetric Intent. I'd leave the file as Adobe RGB when placing it, but I would set the rendering intent of each placed image individually inside of Indesign. When exporting to PDF, each image would be converted using its embedded profile and the rendering intent I chose when placing it. I'm guessing this cannot be done in Publisher, and that all content that is not already in the destination color space will use the rendering intent specified in Preferences. 

Thanks for your patience and your help. I'll get there, hopefully sooner rather than later. 

[loukash]

1 minute ago, Ldina said:

@lacerto Thank you for the in-depth and very helpful explanations.

@lacerto is our PDF Jedi!  

[lacerto]

Obsolete.