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Tables request - Integrate them into text


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I am disappointed to see that in Publisher 2, tables are still not fully integrated into the text flow as in MS word and InDesign (along with many others).  For some kinds of layout, such as catalogues and technical publications, tables that will cross page barriers with repeating head rows are a must. Placing them as pinned or inline objects limited to to a single page is too limiting.

I have just run into this very issue with a government publication that I am working on. I'm trying to migrate from Adobe to Serif, but there are steep hills to climb. I never used Publisher 1 for working projects for this one reason. Designer 1 was a pleasure, however.

On the plus side, I'm happy to see better Word import, but when long tables are involved, they become a challenge.

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1 hour ago, PilotBob said:

For some kinds of layout, such as catalogues and technical publications, tables that will cross page barriers with repeating head rows are a must. Placing them as pinned or inline objects limited to to a single page is too limiting.

A few years ago, while converting an InDesign layout that I've been working with for years to Publisher, I realized that in fact, all those years I was using tables in InDesign (CS5.5) as a workaround because I couldn't achieve a certain effect with the then available standard paragraph decorations. Turned out that eventually it was much easier to format the text in Publisher by importing the plain text as a single story and applying "fake table" design by use of text styles with multiple paragraph decorations, partially applied via regex based Find & Replace of styles. Of course, that won't work in every scenario, but it is a possibility to explore and experiment with.

Here a screenshot from the aforementioned layout:

apu_fake_tables_paragraph_decorations.png.c0176d893be507d20318bbda5872ef0c.png

^ No tables whatsoever, just nested paragraph and character styles.
And… having done many "fake tables" in QuarkXPress back in the 1990s and early 2000s, it wasn't all that hard to figure it out. :) 

~~~

That all said, the Publisher table feature is seriously, er… rudimentary. I've never even used it yet for anything serious because it's just not worth the hassle.
It desperately needs an overhaul.

MacBookAir 15": MacOS Ventura > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // MacBookPro 15" mid-2012: MacOS El Capitan > Affinity v1 / MacOS Catalina > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // iPad 8th: iPadOS 16 > Affinity v2

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I will add that they need notes of their own. Not to be part of footnotes enumeration. Usually symbols are used (asterisks, daggers...) instead of numbers. In most cases they don't need separator line above the first note and for each table they must start from 1 (one asterisk, one dagger...).

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What the tables currently lack is automatic continuation over several pages. Everything else is there. I tend to use this solution when the layout is fixed, for example an invoice, or when there are cell merges.

The workaround of using character or paragraph styles is often relevant, but it is not always quickly applicable when the table becomes a bit complex. I use it more in thesis type work when the height of a cell is going to vary a lot.

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Mais je vous le demande, peut-on imaginer une police sans sérifs ?

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4 hours ago, Pyanepsion said:

What the tables currently lack is automatic continuation over several pages.

This won't likely work in the Affinity Universe as long as tables are being treated as separate objects
What is needed is a table concept that is part of the text, directly within the text frame. For example, it would have to be a special type of paragraph formatting.

MacBookAir 15": MacOS Ventura > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // MacBookPro 15" mid-2012: MacOS El Capitan > Affinity v1 / MacOS Catalina > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // iPad 8th: iPadOS 16 > Affinity v2

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4 hours ago, loukash said:

This won't likely work in the Affinity Universe as long as tables are being treated as separate objects
What is needed is a table concept that is part of the text, directly within the text frame. For example, it would have to be a special type of paragraph formatting.

Yes, loukash, that's exactly my point. MS Word, InDesign, and several other programs, treat tables as part of the text flow, with features that allow them to span pages and repeat header rows. InDesign and Quark XPress these Word files with long tables without causing any disruption or loss.

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22 hours ago, loukash said:

A few years ago, while converting an InDesign layout that I've been working with for years to Publisher, I realized that in fact, all those years I was using tables in InDesign (CS5.5) as a workaround because I couldn't achieve a certain effect with the then available standard paragraph decorations. Turned out that eventually it was much easier to format the text in Publisher by importing the plain text as a single story and applying "fake table" design by use of text styles with multiple paragraph decorations, partially applied via regex based Find & Replace of styles. Of course, that won't work in every scenario, but it is a possibility to explore and experiment with.

Brilliant!

Macbook Pro mid 2015, 16 GB, double barrel: MacOS Mojave + Affinity 1 (+ Adobe’s CS6)/ MacOS Monterey + Affinity 2

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Thanks for your message, but you may have seen others who have suggested your same solution earlier in the thread.
That doesn’t come close to solving my issue, which is two-fold. First, I need an actual table structure with automatic repeating head rows on each page and vertical rules (just like a table) between columns. Second, long tables contained in, and imported with Word files simply disappear from the text. That’s not ideal.
I can think of many tedious work-arounds, but Quark, Word and InDesign (among others) can do this without developing a sweat. 

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1 hour ago, PilotBob said:

automatic repeating head rows

Could be done via Master pages.
(You're aware that you can stack as many unique and independent master pages as you need onto a page? It's a different concept than InDesign, at least from what I've worked with until CS5.5)

1 hour ago, PilotBob said:

vertical rules (just like a table) between columns.

Add as many paragraph decorations you need, no problem.
(Perhaps there is a limit? No idea: I just tried but got bored at "Decoration 221"…)

1 hour ago, PilotBob said:

Second, long tables contained in, and imported with Word files simply disappear from the text.

Convert them to tab separated text first. For "fake tables" you will need tabs anyway.

1 hour ago, PilotBob said:

Quark, Word and InDesign (among others) can do this without developing a sweat. 

If you need the job done now, then simply use the tool that will do it to your liking, of course.

MacBookAir 15": MacOS Ventura > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // MacBookPro 15" mid-2012: MacOS El Capitan > Affinity v1 / MacOS Catalina > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // iPad 8th: iPadOS 16 > Affinity v2

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I think you guys need to see the kind of tables I deal with every day. The attached is from an aviation operations manual. 

I'd like to thank those of you who are trying to help by suggesting paragraph decoration. I have used the technique myself quite often. However no amount of "hanging indent/paragraph decorations" can do what we need.

This table is about 75 rows by 6 columns, spanning almost 6 pages in the manual. This kind of construction is very commonly used in parts catalogues, technical manuals and government publications. The client prepared it in MS Word, but it was destroyed by Publisher's Word import engine. It simply disappeared from the text.

PS: I've been doing this for over 40 years, and I understand the tools quite well. I've been doing graphic design/page layout/mechanical art with computers since Aldus Pagemaker version 1.0/Windows 1.0, and Apple System 7, on both PCs and Macs. Before that, it was art boards and type setting with adhesive wax, steel rulers and exacto knives. I'm just saying... Yes, I'm THAT old, and still working.

And yes, I can still  resort to InDesign, which is a very mature product, but I would dearly love to cut the subscription cord.

Screenshot 2022-12-29 at 20.38.08.png

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1 hour ago, PilotBob said:

art boards and type setting with adhesive wax, steel rulers and exacto knives.

Yeah, I've been through that as well… :D DTP only just began after I finished the art school.

1 hour ago, PilotBob said:

you guys need to see the kind of tables I deal with every day. The attached is from an aviation operations manual. 

I see.

Something like this?

apu_fake_tables_with_page_headers.png.b25f7b607a44b9d53e6d7480fbb54464.png

MacBookAir 15": MacOS Ventura > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // MacBookPro 15" mid-2012: MacOS El Capitan > Affinity v1 / MacOS Catalina > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // iPad 8th: iPadOS 16 > Affinity v2

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loukash, I still only see you doing 2 columns with text. Can your workaround do the attached? Again, the table in my example comes from a Word file, and spans several pages. No text reconstructed. The example was laid out in InDesign, and the source material was imported intact from the Word file. Importing the same word file into Publisher results in the loss of the whole table.

Again, I appreciate your enthusiastic effort to show that what I need can be done. However, it simply cannot be done in Publisher without time-consuming, tedious copy/paste cell by cell reconstruction. And if material gets edited/added that changes the length of the table, the edits become nightmarish.

Again, thanks for your efforts. 

Screenshot 2022-12-30 at 12.52.25.png

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47 minutes ago, PilotBob said:

loukash, I still only see you doing 2 columns with text. Can your workaround do the attached?

Probably not in this form. That's why I said that it "won't work in every scenario, but it is a possibility to explore and experiment with" – either if you want to, or if you have to do it in Publisher.

My specific formatting used herein works only when the last "cell" with text in a "row" is allowed to be multi-line; but it doesn't have to be the "second" one. The "trick" is just a simple First/Left/Right Indent formatting thing. All text but the last "cell" in a "row" should be just one line, separated by tabs. Occasional two-line exceptions are possible, like seen in my example where I have manually "cheated" with New Line, Indent To Here and subsequent baseline shift as a character style. 

If I really had to create a fake table layout in Publisher like in your second example, without having another choice (which I have: ID CS5.5 still works alright on my El Capitan partition), for example I could create a temporary "ultra-tall" *) page with a single Publisher table that can accomodate all rows, format it, and then I would start to split the table onto individual pages. But it really literally depends on the "whole picture". To plan a workflow, I need to know as many variables in advance as possible.

*) For the record, the maximum available page height in Publisher is a whopping 21 m 67 cm 4.677 mm = 61440 pt. That's space for about 4000 table rows, each about 15 pt high…

MacBookAir 15": MacOS Ventura > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // MacBookPro 15" mid-2012: MacOS El Capitan > Affinity v1 / MacOS Catalina > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // iPad 8th: iPadOS 16 > Affinity v2

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MikeW,

Exactly. InDesign can do this, and so can QuarkXPress, but wouldn't it be great to have this in Publisher, and stop paying through the nose every month? That's why I'm suggesting it to Serif on my wishlist for future improvements.

As I said earlier, I'm fully aware of almost every possible work-around (I've been in this business for a boatload of years, and I've used almost every major tool available), but every one of the work-arounds involves quantum increases in the time it takes to get the job done, and makes future edits tedious, if not impossible. I'm also unhappy that long tables in Word files simply disappear when the Word file is imported to Publisher.

That's all.

PB

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Another week, another multipage table workaround. This time with an actual table object. (Yes, just one. Interactive. As long as you need. Across as many pages you need.)
Thanks to @anto for conceiving the initial idea:

Edited by loukash
er, @anto beat me to it…

MacBookAir 15": MacOS Ventura > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // MacBookPro 15" mid-2012: MacOS El Capitan > Affinity v1 / MacOS Catalina > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // iPad 8th: iPadOS 16 > Affinity v2

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