Linux user base keep growing !

[Wanesty]

I am writing to request an update on the potential release of a Linux port of the Affinity Suite. I understand that in the past, the small user base for Linux compared to macOS and Windows was a concern. However, I would like to bring to your attention that the number of Linux users has significantly increased since the forum posts discussing this issue in 2016-2018. This survey conducted by Stack Overflow, demonstrates the increased adoption of Linux by professionals developers. A similar survey show the same increase in VFX studios, and other artistic industries for stability and deployment reasons. Both shows that Linux exceed macOS's user base by a significant amount.

I also wanted to mention the availability of Flatpak / Flathub as a solution to the issue of portability and stability across different Linux distributions. In addition, I wanted to address the concern of profitability in the development of a Linux release. While it is not a perfect solution, I have seen that the Affinity Suite primarily uses OpenGL, who have been implemented well on Linux and .NET 4.8 achieve acceptable stability through the use of wine.

As a professional photo editor, vector graphics, and page layout software, the Affinity Suite would be a valuable addition to the Linux ecosystem, filling a gap in the market for high-quality professional software on this platform. I hope that you will consider these points in your current position on a Linux release.

I respectfully request that Could you provide us with your current stance on a Linux release, taking into account the points mentioned above.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Wanesty

[Patrick Connor]

1 hour ago, Wanesty said:

I am writing to request an update on the potential release of a Linux port of the Affinity Suite.

There is no update Serif have no plans to port to Linux.

[Wanesty]

Did you ever discuss a Linux version or was it never mentioned in meetings from the beginning through today ?

 

Also my last sentence might have sound passive aggressive, that wasn't my intention.

[PaoloT]

On 12/23/2022 at 9:11 AM, Wanesty said:

I would like to bring to your attention that the number of Linux users has significantly increased since the forum posts discussing this issue in 2016-2018.

Statistics based on very small groups, represented by developers or VFX artists, are not very relevant, if thinking to the general target of the Affinity Suite. A slightly more significative statistic, that of desktop OSs used to browse the web, say that Linux is a little more than 1% of the total (compared to the 16% of the Mac). A group of users browsing the web is likely more easy to overlap to a group of users making illustration at some degree.

Paolo

 

[DDNN]

7 hours ago, PaoloT said:

Statistics based on very small groups, represented by developers or VFX artists, are not very relevant, if thinking to the general target of the Affinity Suite. A slightly more significative statistic, that of desktop OSs used to browse the web, say that Linux is a little more than 1% of the total (compared to the 16% of the Mac). A group of users browsing the web is likely more easy to overlap to a group of users making illustration at some degree.

Paolo

 

Before I start, let me say that this is not a rant, though it may be interpreted that way. lol. Sorry if it "sounds" that way.

I'm a Linux user here and I hate having to boot Windows to use my Affinity purchases. Yes, at the time of purchase I knew full well that there is no current Linux support, but that doesn't mean that it should never be considered.

Your argument seems to assume that regular people use sophisticated apps like these all the time - they don't.

Regular people just go to their regular jobs and use the preinstalled browser that comes with their regular operation system; which is also usually preinstalled (Windows).

Let me be the first to mention BLENDER. Do you remember that 3D package that came into an industry dominated by other 3D apps that the majority of 3D creatives use? Now, everyone [even non-creatives] is either using or considering it, and guess what? - Full Linux support. The only popular OSes that Blender doesn't fully support [yet] are mobile OSes (iOS and Android-based).

The target market of almost every creative application is NOT regular people. It's creatives and creatives think outside the box - that's why Linux, Blender, Firefox, etc. exist.

That being said, I understand the idea that the cost to port Affinity apps vs the return on investment is a long-term plan they may not be willing to make. But, I'd also say the fact that all of Microsoft's good operating system ideas since Win 7 have come from studying Linux desktop environments (particularly the visual aspects). That says something, to me at least.

[Wanesty]

14 hours ago, PaoloT said:

represented by developers or VFX artists, are not very relevant

14 hours ago, PaoloT said:

A slightly more significative statistic, that of desktop OSs used to browse the web

 

That's honestly debatable imo : most peoples browsing the web are way less likely to spend 100-200€ in a software suite and will most likely turn to piracy (since it won't be for a commercial use anyway) or to webapps.

Than enterprises and professionals who literally depends on it not having to run in a VM / dual-boot.

And by your logic even if i don't agree with it for many reasons* : an android version should be their priority. which isn't because Serif knows android user are less likely to spend money on pro apps than iPad user are ; Since, most iPad user are using it (semi-)professionally.

*tiny screen too variable of an development platform and not used at all as/on professional tablets

[Wanesty]

6 hours ago, DDNN said:

Let me be the first to mention BLENDER. Do you remember that 3D package that came into an industry dominated by other 3D apps that the majority of 3D creatives use?

also yes, not to get into the whole open-source political maze but yes, companies being able to bet(fund/investment wise) on the success of open-source software, provide improvements to them (i'm convinced affinity would have had variable font, linux support and the shape builder during the V1 period if it was open-source (also would be such a delight middle finger to adobe))

Blender took YEARS to get to the level(popularity and usability) it is today, but being able to just install it anywhere if you need to just do something quick or working with it is godsend.

 

I'm not saying the affinity suite should be open-source/libre (even if unreal engine 5 is proving it can be done and still be commercially viable) i'm saying, please, think about who is using and ultimately buying your software, and a student using a platform it's not available on, and not using any similar software commercially ; like me*, won't be able to fund your project even if i wanted to. (on a positive note, also a trial version is a good move : let me try and learn your software before deciding to buy it. :)

* or most windows web users actually

[Wanesty]

17 minutes ago, Wanesty said:

won't be able to fund your project even if i wanted to

Don't get me wrong, i hate adobe and now that i can, i will 100% get an universal license because i genuinely preferred the V1(trial) to every adobe software i tried, but as someone else in a similar topic said, you're not making me able to give you money.

 

edit:
I'd also like to mention that being placed (and placing yourselves) as a "anti-subscription" / "anti-Adobe" alternative but embracing OS like Windows and MacOS, who are both deeply anti-consumer in many ways, is a weird decision.
You're a company, you need to make money and it's understandable.

Yet offering a Linux version would complete your anti-monopoly(by adobe) objectives and that's why so many peoples are asking for a Linux release : it would just make sense with the philosophy you want to promote and embody.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Wanesty
not to send an other post

[Tia Lapis]

Serif is not in a war with Adobe. They just use another licensing model. There are zero politics in it...

[Twolane]

Creating a version for Linux is akin to creating one for Android. No one is willing to pay the price for anything useful. 10 bucks for an Android app won't pay to keep the electricity on anywhere in the world. Neither will a few Linux users.

There's a thread here somewhere about Linux (still not) running on Bottles (or anything else Linux, for that matter.)

[DDNN]

Blender may have taken years to get where it is today, but look at how much it's improved in just the last 5.

Now, imagine if a corporation like Serif were to actually take suggestions from their community more seriously (not saying they have to be open source).

And like Wanesty said, open source is really not a bad idea. The community-driven development team could be exactly what's needed to take another financial chunk out of the creative software market. But, I'm no developer and Blender, Krita, and Wordpress are my only references.

[Wanesty]

9 hours ago, DDNN said:

Blender, Krita, and Wordpress are my only references

Going/being open-source is a risky bet and a lot of open source projects end up abandoned because of the financial aspect, (as a lot of proprietary software).

I'm not asking serif to go open-source, honestly i don't care about it being proprietary* as long as the development is attentive enough to community/customers feedback.
However I've cited unreal engine 5 going open-source while it not at all being an issue profitability wise : open-source ≠ gratis.
 

*I personally prefer open-source by a moral standpoint ; i want to be able to look inside the pie before eating it if i feel like it, and maybe add salt without having to ask the chef.
But as i said at the very beginning, serif is a company, i understand money.

[DDNN]

3 hours ago, Wanesty said:

Going/being open-source is a risky bet and a lot of open source projects end up abandoned because of the financial aspect, (as a lot of proprietary software).

I'm not asking serif to go open-source, honestly i don't care about it being proprietary* as long as the development is attentive enough to community/customers feedback.
However I've cited unreal engine 5 going open-source while it not at all being an issue profitability wise : open-source ≠ gratis.
 

*I personally prefer open-source by a moral standpoint ; i want to be able to look inside the pie before eating it if i feel like it, and maybe add salt without having to ask the chef.
But as i said at the very beginning, serif is a company, i understand money.

Yeah, I get that. If I was strict on open-source tools I wouldn't be on this forum in the first place, but there are few companies that are fully proprietary that actually listen to their user-base, like Milanote (alternative to OneNote). They actually have a voting system for what users want alongside things they would like to add.

Here's what I mean:
https://poll.milanote.com/tabs/2-planned

[Wanesty]

1 hour ago, DDNN said:

They actually have a voting system for what users want alongside things they would like to add.

Doing business apple-like, and only listening to your customers if 30% of them are loud enough shouldn't be the standard.
Most of the customers will not even complain because they know they won't be heard, look at this thread.

[Snapseed]

On 12/26/2022 at 4:48 PM, PaoloT said:

Statistics based on very small groups, represented by developers or VFX artists, are not very relevant, if thinking to the general target of the Affinity Suite. A slightly more significative statistic, that of desktop OSs used to browse the web, say that Linux is a little more than 1% of the total (compared to the 16% of the Mac). A group of users browsing the web is likely more easy to overlap to a group of users making illustration at some degree.

Paolo

 

With respect, the actual figure for general Linux desktop users in November 2022 according to Statcounter was 2.77%.

That said, that figure is not nearly enough for many companies to consider viably porting their software over to Linux unless the existing software is already cross platform Qt-based, for example (the Affinity products are not). Therefore, I fully understand Serif Europe's position on this matter. People also forget that Serif Europe is 100x smaller than the Adobe Corporation and so they just don't have the resources that Adobe do.

So what should us Linux users do then? (me included)

There are three things that can be done:

1. In the case of Affinity Photo, consider using Linux-friendly alternatives like PhotoGimp ( = less sucky Gimp), Photopea, Krita or PhotoLine + Wine (Photoshop versions CS6 and CS2 also work well with Wine). Equivalents are also available for Designer and Publisher. Head over here to find them - https://alternativeto.net/

2. Try out Photo, Designer and Publisher on Linux by using Windows as a guest operating system in a virtual environment (VirtualBox or VMware) as illustrated in forum member Hartmut Doering's post below:

 

3. it is completely pointless to keep on asking Serif Europe staff on these forums to port Photo, Designer and Publisher to Linux because they have made it crystal clear on numerous occasions that this is not going to happen.

It is far more logical for Linux users to instead head over to CodeWeavers' CrossOver forums and ask them to please make it a priority for CrossOver to work well with Affinity Photo, Designer and Publisher.

Link - https://www.codeweavers.com/support/forums/general/?t=26

[Tia Lapis]

49 minutes ago, Wanesty said:

Most of the customers will not even complain because they know they won't be heard, look at this thread.

Developers hear customer wishes - But a good developer works at HIS program, he can integrate some wishes but many won't fit to the vision of the program so won't be implemented. This is good as without a vision you get a mountain of features without any coherence.

[DDNN]

I'm just gonna can it here for myself until V3. Will wait for the .exe/.msi files before buying (if I decide to buy, that is).

[deeds]

Linux users could start a poll, somewhere out in the wider web, to reveal how many of them are willing to pay for software, and which specific software, too.

 

That's about the only way they're going to convince anyone not otherwise religiously devoted to its anachronisms to support it through self funded, risky endeavour at their own opportunity cost.

I always get the feeling that Linux users are less likely to want to pay for software things than even Windows users. Which is really saying something. And this kind of polling might reveal that to be true, and that creative software is quite low on the average Linux user's wish lists for things they'd pay for, which might also be the reason this kind of polling isn't done.

 

But that's all conjecture. 

 

Remind me, how does Blender make a profit?

 

[Snapseed]

11 hours ago, deeds said:

Linux users could start a poll, somewhere out in the wider web, to reveal how many of them are willing to pay for software, and which specific software, too.

That's about the only way they're going to convince anyone not otherwise religiously devoted to its anachronisms to support it through self funded, risky endeavour at their own opportunity cost.

I always get the feeling that Linux users are less likely to want to pay for software things than even Windows users. Which is really saying something. And this kind of polling might reveal that to be true, and that creative software is quite low on the average Linux user's wish lists for things they'd pay for, which might also be the reason this kind of polling isn't done.

But that's all conjecture. 

Remind me, how does Blender make a profit?

 

Tbh, I am not sure that's the real issue.

As of last month, macOS had a desktop market share of 15.6% whereas Linux's comparable figure was 2.77%, i.e. Linux has a market share 6x smaller than macOS. If macOS had, for example, a general market share of 15.6% and Linux had one of 14.8% then very many more companies would likely produce a Linux version of their softwares.

When it comes to specialist development work, Linux has a reported developer market share of between 30% to 40% so that makes it worthwhile for companies in that area like JetBrains to produce Linux versions of their products.

[Tia Lapis]

Marketshare has no value if the people are not willing to pay for software.

[Snapseed]

8 hours ago, Tia Lapis said:

Marketshare has no value if the people are not willing to pay for software.

Please put stereotyped views aside and just think for one moment. If Linux, for example, had a 15% market share then the great majority of those people would almost certainly be standard ordinary computer users just like macOS users.

I believe that developers should be rewarded for their efforts and I am only too happy to pay for software like Softmaker Office, Pixeluvo, Vuescan, Ukuu and the rest.

[dcr]

Commercial software and commercial operating systems are becoming more and more of a hassle.  It's kind of the opposite of the way things used to work.  Free used to mean hassle.  Installing open source apps wasn't always easy as you may have needed to compile it yourself and/or install other software (that might also need to be compiled) first.

Nowadays, it's the reverse.  You pay money for software and it's a hassle.  You need an account.  You need Internet access anytime you need to install software.  You need to activate the software.  And sometimes deactivate it on another machine first.  And, if you've had a computer failure and can't deactivate an activated app?  More hassle.

Open source and Linux are becoming much less hassle than commercial, paid-for software.

[DDNN]

16 hours ago, deeds said:

Linux users could start a poll, somewhere out in the wider web, to reveal how many of them are willing to pay for software, and which specific software, too.

 

That's about the only way they're going to convince anyone not otherwise religiously devoted to its anachronisms to support it through self funded, risky endeavour at their own opportunity cost.

I always get the feeling that Linux users are less likely to want to pay for software things than even Windows users. Which is really saying something. And this kind of polling might reveal that to be true, and that creative software is quite low on the average Linux user's wish lists for things they'd pay for, which might also be the reason this kind of polling isn't done.

 

But that's all conjecture. 

 

Remind me, how does Blender make a profit?

 

I send money to the software developers for Blender, Krita, and NovelWriter on a monthly basis, as well as three creatives (one writer, one artist, and a Youtuber). And I hate the idea of subscriptions.

So... Say again? 🧐

The majority of Linux users don't leave Windows or Mac to avoid paying for software. They leave it because they can't afford to buy a new computer when their Windows PC starts running slowly and they learn about Linux's minimum resource usage. They leave for privacy and/or security. They leave because they think customizing a desktop without having to hack it is cool. And so many other reasons.

Anyway, please stop spouting your negative ideas about Linux users and stick to the actual facts.

[Corgi]

I would love to have the Affinity suite on Linux, but I'd much prefer that they first get it running virtually bug-free and bullet-proof on the OSs they already support. And that they implement some sorely-needed long-requested features.

[deeds]

7 hours ago, DDNN said:

Anyway, please stop spouting your negative ideas about Linux users and stick to the actual facts.

Interesting that you think the relative lack of creative users willing to pay for creative software, on Linux, is a negative thing. 

How do you plan to address this in a way that would provide both sufficient recompense and incentive for a company like Affinity to spend the millions of dollars in man hours (and even more in opportunity cost) to convert their software to the many fragmented versions of Linux?