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Pixelated image when resizing layer


javierr

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Hi! I am very new to Affinity. I have searched in the forum but didn't find anything similar, so I don't know... maybe it is only happening to me.

I created a new file of 127px width, 180 px height, with 72 dpi. My test is small because I found the problem with that one, but it happens with other sizes.

Drag the woman image so it is a new layer (linked).

I then resize that layer (the layer, not the document) to a 10% width with Transform panel.

You can see how the image gets pixelated, or some would say blurry (depending on the zoom level!). This is not happening in Photoshop, which looks fine. This problem is NOT happening in Affinity Designer, nor Publisher.

This is a problem, cause you can not work in a blurry-pixelated image in "photo persona". I don't know if there are other options to preview images (in Preferences>Performance>View Quality I have "bilinear (best quality)", as with "Nearest Neighbour" is much worse).

Exporting as JPG through "File>Export"

  • Resample: Bicubic
  • Quality 100%
  • gets same blurrines-pixelation.

 

  • Resample: Lanczos 3 Non-separable, which seems the best
  • Quality 100%
  • gets better. I think is even better than photoshop, at least with this small export size.

 

Ok, then I change to "export persona" and the image in the monitor looks as expected! But exporting it gets same results as before.

You can check and try with the attached elements (woman photo is free, on Pixabay: https://pixabay.com/photos/woman-portrait-face-skin-make-up-3096664/ I downloaded the 1920px option).

Thank you!

 

Edit: I have uploaded a new image: a screen capture of Affinity Photo vs Photoshop.

woman-gd88d45c42_1920.jpg

photoshop-woman-export-bicubic-automatic-100-quality.jpg

affinity-photo-woman-export-with-lanczos3.jpg

affinity-photo-woman-export-with-bicubic.jpg

affinity-photo--export-persona-with-bicubic.jpg

affinity-photo--export-persona-with-lanczos3.jpg

woman.psd woman.afphoto

affinity-photo-vs-photoshop-screens.png

Edited by javierr
I have uploaded a new image: a screen capture of Affinity Photo vs Photoshop.
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I believe is the rendering engine, it does not work like Photoshop's or other apps.  But the exported data, once viewed in an external viewer, would be fine in any case.

It is a number of operations it makes to achieve high performance.

Now, you will probably notice that this does not happen at certain levels. Probably it is very fine at 100% level (so, 1:1) (and even more accurate if zoomed in, but then you will see the pixels).

I would be surprised if it happens only in your Photo v2 and not in v2 Designer or Publisher, as I believe they use the same main engine.

I would make sure that : 

- View quality (calidad de la vista) is bilinear, as you mentioned. It might not be needed, but I would do a restart of the application after making these changes, just to be sure it's taking them.

- In the same preferences area of performance where you have the bilinear thing (btw, leave the gradients option on), a bit  below, computing for the card, it should be listing your actual graphics card.

- And just below,  retina renderer, it should say "High Quality".

if nothing improves, I'd just try to edit in 100% zoom level when you need super high sharpness while editing, for some reason.

I don't notice issues setting all those settings in bilinear, high. I also have the card selected, and OpenCL on, because I am not having any sort of issues, now. But this varies quite from system to system.

Edit: And yes, for export (when you include a resize in the export settings), or any document dimensions, image size change, Lanczos is the best technique, very high quality.

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3 hours ago, javierr said:

This problem is NOT happening in Affinity Designer, nor Publisher.

Publisher and Designer by default show a transformed image in "vector mode". If you zoom a small document (like 127x180px) to 800%, and place a image, this image will be shows with 8x the resolution in vector mode, giving you a false impression of higher resolution.

In designer, you can activate pixel preview mode, this gives you a more realistic preview using only the document resolution (so every document pixel will be 8x8 pixel large).

Photo always works in pixel mode, never in vector mode.

Another factor is view quality settings, and zoom level. Affinity uses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mipmap to achieve snappy performance, with compromising screen rendering quality when using certain zoom levels.

The default bilinear resample always creates a smoother, but blurry preview. To rate sharpness (or blurriness), you need to zoom to exactly 100%, 200% or 400%. Other zoom factors will create an unrealistic preview, which can be more blurry or looking sharper depending on several factors. Please use "view quality best (slowest), all other modes are unsuitable for pixel-level work.

 

Most filters like noise, Denise, sharpening, etc. are rendered in screen resolution, and not in document resolutions. This always leads to completely wrong impressions of the effects when not using 100% zoom.

 

The only way to get an realistic preview is "merge visible" as top layer, export->preview, or actually exporting and viewing in a separate app.

Discussions about perceived or actual blurriness, resample methods et. are legend in the forum. Please try to really understand how Affinity works before assuming bugs or requesting changes.

 

 

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Just open this innocent file and use different zoom levels, specifically around 50% 100% 200%.

 

Tell me if the file has red or green stripes.

Then export as png, and try the same zoom levels on the opened PNG file.

 

 

red or green.afphoto

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So the rendering goes from

  • pure black (up to 50%) over
  • red with occasional green (up to 100%)
  • green at 100%
  • again to red (up to 199%)
  • to finally green (200% and above).

Correct is green, all others are wrong, artefacts resulting from bilinear resampling and mip-maps.

Note that the navigator thumbnail is often more correct ..

 

<50%: mostly black

495924809_Screenshot2022-12-15at23_47_32.png.bfb58a88596e710399e91306f6e30557.png

50%

1442367714_Screenshot2022-12-15at23_47_27.png.aa989fd3bdbfd2e08110bad39101d33b.png

51-99%

804733579_Screenshot2022-12-15at23_47_22.png.8a68c3411f6fb1b2e3ce497929de1319.png

100%

1546206335_Screenshot2022-12-15at23_47_00.png.81238f5fc42195a6219a9fed4819fc4d.png

101-199%

1222707437_Screenshot2022-12-15at23_46_45.png.532ddd58eb30658cd203d527d4f8dd76.png

200%

359265527_Screenshot2022-12-15at23_46_38.png.0c0112a155e2a95c48088f41bc6056dc.png

2059895471_Screenshot2022-12-15at23_46_33.png.4dfc3f4f55c00a5ac904f55965462312.png

Screenshot 2022-12-15 at 23.47.05.png

Screenshot 2022-12-15 at 23.46.53.png

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Hi, I have uploaded a screen capture comparing the rendering of imagen in screen: Affinity Photo vs Photoshop.

14 hours ago, SrPx said:

I believe is the rendering engine, it does not work like Photoshop's or other apps.  But the exported data, once viewed in an external viewer, would be fine in any case.

Exported data are just part of the problem. The problem is when working with the image. You can not work with a blurry-pixelated image.

 

14 hours ago, SrPx said:

Now, you will probably notice that this does not happen at certain levels. Probably it is very fine at 100% level (so, 1:1) (and even more accurate if zoomed in, but then you will see the pixels).

It happens at every level. It is not a question of zoom level. Please try for yourself. It is a question of reducing the size of that layer (to 10% wide in my example).

 

14 hours ago, SrPx said:

I would be surprised if it happens only in your Photo v2 and not in v2 Designer or Publisher, as I believe they use the same main engine.

Please, try for yourself with the steps I commented.

 

14 hours ago, SrPx said:

I would make sure that : 

- View quality (calidad de la vista) is bilinear, as you mentioned. It might not be needed, but I would do a restart of the application after making these changes, just to be sure it's taking them.

I have tried that, but no improvement.

My laptop is not the problem neither (or so I think) because as you can see in the uploaded screen captures, in Photoshop the image looks fine.

 

14 hours ago, SrPx said:

if nothing improves, I'd just try to edit in 100% zoom level when you need super high sharpness while editing, for some reason.

As you can imagine, working at 100% zoom level is not the solution, and would not be in a photo treatment program but, as I have explained, the problem is not with zoom level.

 

14 hours ago, SrPx said:

Edit: And yes, for export (when you include a resize in the export settings), or any document dimensions, image size change, Lanczos is the best technique, very high quality.

I do not include a resize in export. The document I create is 128x170px and I don`t change it in the export. But the problem is not the export, but the image rendered in the program.

 

11 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

Just open this innocent file and use different zoom levels, specifically around 50% 100% 200%.

As I explained, the problem is not the zoom levels. Please, just try with my image and my steps and paste your screens here. That would add light to the problem (at least we will know if the problem is mine or common).

 

11 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

Publisher and Designer by default show a transformed image in "vector mode". If you zoom a small document (like 127x180px) to 800%, and place a image, this image will be shows with 8x the resolution in vector mode, giving you a false impression of higher resolution.

I don't know what Publisher and Designer are doing, but Photo could do the same... Just try for yourself. I created both documents 128x170 px size in Publisher and Designer, placed the image, reduced its size, and the image looks fine. I don't think Designer and Publisher are transforming the image into vectors (that would be crazy).

I even opened the Photo file in Designer (the one with the woman picture resized to 10%), nothing else, and the image looks like it should be.

 

11 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

Another factor is view quality settings, and zoom level. Affinity uses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mipmap to achieve snappy performance, with compromising screen rendering quality when using certain zoom levels.

The default bilinear resample always creates a smoother, but blurry preview. To rate sharpness (or blurriness), you need to zoom to exactly 100%, 200% or 400%. Other zoom factors will create an unrealistic preview, which can be more blurry or looking sharper depending on several factors. Please use "view quality best (slowest), all other modes are unsuitable for pixel-level work.

I have answered to this before. It is not zoom level. It is the way Affinity Photo manages the image layer when it is resized.

 

11 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

Most filters like noise, Denise, sharpening, etc. are rendered in screen resolution, and not in document resolutions. This always leads to completely wrong impressions of the effects when not using 100% zoom.

Not using filters. My steps are way more simpler than that.

 

11 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

The only way to get an realistic preview is "merge visible" as top layer, export->preview, or actually exporting and viewing in a separate app.

"Merge visible" does nothing (I only have one layer), it only creates a new layer which is the same as bad.

 

11 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

Discussions about perceived or actual blurriness, resample methods et. are legend in the forum. Please try to really understand how Affinity works before assuming bugs or requesting changes.

Thank your for the link, totally agree with those issues. Anyway, that is why I have uploaded the screen comparison. If all Affinity Photo users are fine with that blurriness and it will always be (and it is not a problem of mine), I have to keep working with photoshop, and I don't want.

 

11 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

Just open this innocent file and use different zoom levels, specifically around 50% 100% 200%.

Thank you for the file, but what I am talking here is a different issue (or at least, that is what I think). I am aware of the zoom level differences when the image is like in your file, but, in my case, the problem should be that your image, when being resized, gets blurry at any zoom level.

 

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We have some serious cross talking.

If you place an image, a image layer will be created. This is kind of a vector shape (rectangular) with a fill of type bitmap. 
If you resize the image layer, you resize the „container“ vector shape.  This does not mean tracing / vectorizing the bitmap data.
 

The bitmap fill will be scaled according to the actual size of that container object.

  1. in Photo, or Designer Pixel view, the result will be mapped to document pixels.
  2. In Designer vector view mode, the results will be mapped to display pixels (Not document pixels). If zoomed >100%, this makes a huge difference.

 

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NotMyFault has made some great points here, javierr. However, I am curious as to why the Export Persona is showing the image crisper than the Photo Persona. I've just tried this on macOS and both personas look the same as Photo Persona on Windows. I've asked the developers because I do not know why there is a difference here.

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16 hours ago, javierr said:

have uploaded a new image: a screen capture of Affinity Photo vs Photoshop.

Thank your for that screenshot.

I opened this as new file in photo, added the stock face image newly, and reduced size to 20% to achieve the same size. On my devices, the rendering equals that from Photoshop. So essentially I cannot reproduce your blurry rendering on my devices (M1 Mac Mini, multiple iPads).

Can you please share the full details of of PC, GPU, display settings (Prefernces->Performance) in Photo?

Please set View Quality to best (slowest). Otherwise you are in risk of getting 1/2 resolution rendering.

And why I need to use 20%,  in contrast to your 10% factor?

ADBC2F34-DA0C-484D-BA40-6A2220796B93.png

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Another aspect to consider: pixel alignment. In Photo (and all Affinity Apps) it makes a big difference if layers are positioned on integer or fractional positions. If you move the layer by 0.1 steps the rendering will differ. 

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On 12/16/2022 at 12:34 PM, NotMyFault said:

I opened this as new file in photo, added the stock face image newly, and reduced size to 20% to achieve the same size. On my devices, the rendering equals that from Photoshop. So essentially I cannot reproduce your blurry rendering on my devices (M1 Mac Mini, multiple iPads).

Hi! That is good news for you, and guess it restricts the mistery to something about my laptop.

 

On 12/16/2022 at 12:34 PM, NotMyFault said:

Can you please share the full details of of PC, GPU, display settings (Prefernces->Performance) in Photo?

I attach here some screenshots. You can see View Quality is set to best.

 

On 12/16/2022 at 12:34 PM, NotMyFault said:

And why I need to use 20%,  in contrast to your 10% factor?

I doubt my screencapture would fit the % proportions correctly. Instead of trying it, why don't you try with my uploaded documents, or create a new document following the steps I describe in my question? In case you think my files have viruses, you don't need to use it. Just download the woman image and follow the steps to recreate the problem.

On 12/16/2022 at 12:36 PM, NotMyFault said:

Another aspect to consider: pixel alignment. In Photo (and all Affinity Apps) it makes a big difference if layers are positioned on integer or fractional positions. If you move the layer by 0.1 steps the rendering will differ. 

I upload a file with three comparisons: changing the position of layer and avoiding the fractions does not make any difference. Even changing the proportions to fit exactly in round pixels does not change anything.

 

On 12/16/2022 at 12:02 PM, Chris B said:

NotMyFault has made some great points here, javierr. However, I am curious as to why the Export Persona is showing the image crisper than the Photo Persona. I've just tried this on macOS and both personas look the same as Photo Persona on Windows. I've asked the developers because I do not know why there is a difference here.

Hi Chris. If you say you don't get the crispy look on macOS, that could be a good hint to resolve the mistery. Thank you for contacting the developers. What I wonder is if nobody using a macOS had noticed this before. Have you tried with Photo version 1? (I will install it again and will tell you my results).

Thanks!

 

system.png

preferences, performance.png

transform.jpg

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If you disable OpenCL, or change to software renderer, does it improve?

And please  change „Retina Rendering“ to High (Slowest).

Your PC and GPU is spec-wise at the lower edge, and might be too slow to render full (Retina) resolution.

 

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5 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

If you disable OpenCL, or change to software renderer, does it improve?

Disabling OpenCL makes no difference. Software renderer to WARP, neither.

 

5 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

And please  change „Retina Rendering“ to High (Slowest).

No difference neither.

 

I have restarted Affinity in each change, justo to be sure.

Anyway, Affinity Designer, Publisher, Affinity Photo (in export persona), and Photoshop don't have problems rendering the image as it should be and with the initial performance settings.

 

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Thanks for doing the tests.

My current assumption is the issue are related to the hardware used.Cant really help any further.

The way the 3 Apps rendering documents differs, Photo is special (to achieve high performance with bitmaps and many filter layers), and always showing “pixel” view mode. Designer and Publisher use different methods and view modes.

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@javierr

Is this the issue you are having? I tried a 2nd try rasterizing before resizing. Still shows the blurriness like this screen you provided.                                  li

No audio. It is 4K, so you may have to pan to see the results. I did try at 100% DPI in Windows and 150% DPI while program was up.

Oops, forgot to include exported Lanzos3 version (rasterized Image -> Pixel Layer):

exported-version.png.33deb305b8e1f9a8320893bf0a149301.png

 
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Taking the image itself and opening, resizing/resampling with bicupic causes pretty much same results.

woman-resized-bicubic.png.87aba3558736f68e971ce367c0a3de67.png

woman-resized-bicubic.afphoto

Obviously, using Lanzos 3 Non-separable, it looks much better.

woman-resized-lanz3.png.c233e855d748c847b8d7bfbe38b9e523.png

woman-resized-lanz3.afphoto


I don't even know how we can control what resampling method is used with the Transform in Photo? I believe in PS, it was in preferences but not 100% sure. I tend to work assets separately and using a grid system with set dimensions, so when using Place, I don't often rescale. I use cropping operations often more and then vector/SVG-converted works from other programs, so can't say I'd have noticed... but very glad to know about it before I start doing any of type of compositing.

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18 hours ago, debraspicher said:

I don't even know how we can control what resampling method is used with the Transform in Photo?

It is always bilinear when using Move Tool / Transform panel, or any regular function involving resizing like perspective filter, mesh war filter, whatever.

Except you are using "Document->Rescue Pixel Art Document": There your have a choice:

https://affinity.help/photo2/English.lproj/pages/SizeTransform/pixelart.html

 

PS: More details can be found here: 

 

Edited by NotMyFault
added link to tutorial about resampling

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Please note there are at least 3 independent levels of resampling in Photo:

  • For rendering of document canvas inside Photo (not relevant for export !!!!) : you can choose (statically) between bilinear and nearest neighbour in Preferences->Performance->View Quality
  • For "Document->Resize Pixel Art Document": There your have a choice of methods according to help
    • https://affinity.help/photo2/English.lproj/pages/SizeTransform/pixelart.html
    • To resize using pixel art filters:
      1. From the Document menu, select Resize Pixel Art Document.
      2. Choose from either HQX or XBR as the resampling method, and pick a size multiplier from 2x, 3x or 4x.

      If you are seeking very smooth results, it is recommended to try XBR as the resampling method. HQXproduces sharper results but exhibits more jaggedness around fine edges.

  • At Export, you have a choice according to export UI
    • https://affinity.help/photo2/English.lproj/pages/Sharing/export.html

      The following resample settings are available:

    • Nearest Neighbour—simple resampling which has the fastest processing time. Use for hard-edge images.
    • Bilinear—algorithmic resampling for use when shrinking images.
    • Bicubic—algorithmic resampling for use when enlarging images. Resampling is smoother than Bilinear but has a slower processing time.
    • Lanczos 3—complex algorithmic resampling which gives the best results but with the longest processing time. Available as 'separable' and 'non-separable'; the latter gives marginally better results, but is slightly slower than 'separable'.

I'm still uncertain if the export settings impact the resampling of all layers inside the document, or only adds an overall resampling in case of export dimensions is different from document (pixel size) dimensions.

Please see linked tutorial for latest & corrected information about how resample works.

 

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After some additional experiments:

resampling while rendering within Photo to Display is totally independent from export to exported files.

  • For rendering inside the App, you use Preferences->Performance with 2 choices (requires App restart to change)
  • For Export, you use the export UI and have 4 choices. (can be changed on-the-fly for every export).
  • Pixel Art resize (or Document resize) is again independent, and "bakes in" the selected choice - but this affects only pixel layers, and every layer individually. The result of blend operations, adjustments and filters after resize depends again on the regular settings and choices.

Sounds complicated? Yes, it is, but it follows some kind of logic.

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But...There's also Document menu -> Change Document size, or ctrl + alt + i  . Having the nearest neighbor, bilinear, bicubic, and the two Lanczos methods. And also having the possibility of resampling or not (useful for the dpi calculation and all that). Or maybe I am not getting the point.

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I think we are talking about layer operations, not document-wide. Anyway I usually crop then do document resize on single image with my target proportions/dimensions. I can see when importing multiple layers for compositing and resizing, the blurriness can be rather annoying when viewing outside 100%. Especially if the full image doesn't fit in the viewport.

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On 12/16/2022 at 11:02 AM, Chris B said:

I've asked the developers because I do not know why there is a difference here.

It's a bug, in that the Export Persona is incorrectly displaying a vector view. This was fixed for macOS a while ago but not for Windows.

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4 hours ago, Chris B said:

It's a bug, in that the Export Persona is incorrectly displaying a vector view. This was fixed for macOS a while ago but not for Windows.

Well, if the bug is showing the image correctly in Export Persona, welcome that bug to Photo Persona! 😁

 

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