Better way to complete text editing

[R C-R]

27 minutes ago, GizmoStudios said:

I make a big deal out of this since a lot of apps I own (most Adobe apps) cancel out of your edit when hitting escape, which I think is expected behaviour.

But there are many apps that do not use or need to use Escape to exit text entry mode. How can you justify calling it "anti-pattern" knowing that?

[GizmoStudios]

31 minutes ago, Alfred said:

The reason is simple: there is no need for a separate action to commit your changes, so if you want to switch to doing something else you just need to choose another tool. If you decide you didn’t actually want the changes you made, there’s an ‘Undo’ command to deal with that.

Clicking on another tool... most people (including me)  use shortcuts to select tools. But you can't use any shortcut since you're still in editing mode, and the only way to get out is to use the escape key (which is cancel/undo in other apps) or grab the mouse and click another tool, which is time consuming rather clunky when you are a shortcut user. 

I'm done arguing here actually.. my custom hotkey with BetterTouchTool works somewhat, and I don't have any hope that this gets changed or implemented anyway seeing how defensive staff/other users get when I (and others) try to point out that it's not nice that we can't set a shortcut other than escape to do this.

[GizmoStudios]

27 minutes ago, R C-R said:

But there are many apps that do not use or need to use Escape to exit text entry mode. How can you justify calling it "anti-pattern" knowing that?

Anti in that I have to be careful not to hit escape in other programs since it has the opposite effect.

[R C-R]

7 minutes ago, GizmoStudios said:

Clicking on another tool... most people (including me)  use shortcuts to select tools.

How many other people did you ask before coming to that debatable conclusion?

More to the point, which other tools would you want to select after exiting text entry mode that do not require use of the mouse? You can't do everything from the keyboard so you will still need to use the mouse (or stylus or whatever) to use brushes, make selections, draw shapes or curves, & do many other things routinely done by almost every graphics app user.

In fact, because it is efficient it is common to use the mouse while in text entry mode, for example to reposition or rotate a text block; to resize a text frame; or select a run of text to change its style, size, or other text attributes.

33 minutes ago, GizmoStudios said:

Anti in that I have to be careful not to hit escape in other programs since it has the opposite effect.

I have to be careful in essentially every app I use not to hit the wrong key, but I don't consider that to be "anti-pattern" or anything like that.

[db1844]

On 3/25/2019 at 2:54 PM, GizmoStudios said:

Clicking on another tool... most people (including me)  use shortcuts to select tools. But you can't use any shortcut since you're still in editing mode, and the only way to get out is to use the escape key (which is cancel/undo in other apps) or grab the mouse and click another tool, which is time consuming rather clunky when you are a shortcut user. 

I'm done arguing here actually.. my custom hotkey with BetterTouchTool works somewhat, and I don't have any hope that this gets changed or implemented anyway seeing how defensive staff/other users get when I (and others) try to point out that it's not nice that we can't set a shortcut other than escape to do this.

Thanks so much GizmoStudios, 

i always stumble about the converting behavior, i am really frustrated. I can agree with all the arguments you made. I don't even know, that the keyboard has an escape button, because I use it (at least I think so) never. Maybe I am contaminated by Adobe, but the behavior from. Affinity is really strange. I had to google, how to change the tools. Pressing Esc seems for me laborious.   

[walt.farrell]

1 hour ago, db1844 said:

Pressing Esc seems for me laborious.   

Welcome to the Serif Affinity forums, @db1844.

Pressing Esc may be different from what you're used to, but should be no more laborious than pressing some other key. And it should be less laborious than pressing a 2-key combination such as shift+enter or whatever you're used to. It's just different, and all programs operate differently in some ways from other programs.

[GizmoStudios]

1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

Welcome to the Serif Affinity forums, @db1844.

Pressing Esc may be different from what you're used to, but should be no more laborious than pressing some other key. And it should be less laborious than pressing a 2-key combination such as shift+enter or whatever you're used to. It's just different, and all programs operate differently in some ways from other programs.

It's not that it's more work than pushing another button, it's just that it's the ESCAPE button (ak CANCEL/ABORT/STOP/GET OUT/PANIC), even Apple removed this button in favor of a context aware touch strip, so it's even trickier to find the button. If it was just an option in the shortcut settings, where you can pretty much set anything else the way you like, we could stop this whole discussion and everyone can just set what they think works best for them. And I would like to believe Affinity is a company that promotes choice and user optimization :) 

[thomaso]

Doesn't the key shortcut cmd-d (= menu "Select" > "Deselect") make the text cursor leaving the current text frame?

Why do you see a particular need to "complete" or "quit" or "finalize" text editing at all?

What prevents you instead to simply continue to do a next step in your layout? With a mouse action and not typing text, because you are finished with this text. For instance, still with text tool, simply click once besides the text frame on a blank area.

 

[GizmoStudios]

24 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Doesn't the key shortcut cmd-d (= menu "Select" > "Deselect") make the text cursor leaving the current text frame?

Why do you see a particular need to "complete" or "quit" or "finalize" text editing at all?

What prevents you instead to simply continue to do a next step in your layout? With a mouse action and not typing text, because you are finished with this text. For instance, still with text tool, simply click once besides the text frame on a blank area.

 

The CMD+D is actually a nice suggestion, better than escape in my opinion and you can assign it, yay!

The reason you'd like to get out of text edit mode is so you can type a shortcut. As long as you stay in text edit, all shortcuts will be shown as letters Clicking outside means stop typing, grab the mouse, move it out of the way, and click. That's 4 actions... hardly optimal. And then it sometimes starts a new text entry.

But the CMD+D can be changed to be CMD+Return so it pretty much does the trick. It's a little different from ESC that you loose the selection/transform frame from the text but you can start using shortcuts again, so thank you!

[walt.farrell]

38 minutes ago, GizmoStudios said:

The reason you'd like to get out of text edit mode is so you can type a shortcut. As long as you stay in text edit, all shortcuts will be shown as letters Clicking outside means stop typing, grab the mouse, move it out of the way, and click. That's 4 actions... hardly optimal. And then it sometimes starts a new text entry.

I don't think you responded to R C-R's point above that using the mouse to click outside the frame should be just as efficient, because you're going probably to be using the mouse with the new Tool you're choosing anyway.

I think it's a good point, and was wondering the same thing myself. What Tool are you choosing next after you've finished typing, and what are you going to do with it. For example, if you're going to Move something. Click on or ourside the frame with the mouse, then type V, then use the mouse as you were going to do anyway.

Or have we forgotten some other tools that aren't mouse-oriented?

[R C-R]

4 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

Or have we forgotten some other tools that aren't mouse-oriented?

For that matter, text editing itself is often partially mouse oriented, for example when moving the insertion point to some point far from its current position to insert copied text, which could be copied or cut from some other block of text in the current or some other document. Sure, I could do the selections just using modifier & cursor keys but unless the text run is short, it is far more efficient to use the mouse for that.

After all, that is one of the benefits of using a GUI for routine text entry vs. a CLI, which most of us rarely have used for that since the 1980's.

[db1844]

7 hours ago, thomaso said:

Doesn't the key shortcut cmd-d (= menu "Select" > "Deselect") make the text cursor leaving the current text frame?

Why do you see a particular need to "complete" or "quit" or "finalize" text editing at all?

What prevents you instead to simply continue to do a next step in your layout? With a mouse action and not typing text, because you are finished with this text. For instance, still with text tool, simply click once besides the text frame on a blank area.

 

Thanks for your suggestion. I read already several ways how to obtain a suitable workflow. But it seems, that all the suggestions are not working  in some cases.
For example, my case was: Adding to a machine (Photo) several orientation Numbers, which the handbook was referencing to. 
So, to keep everything in order: 
1. I had to put Circle, Number in a Group.    
2. Numbers and circles were really small. (So there is no way and no space, to go after editing with the mouse to any text frame or something like that for dragging. 
3. Using mouse in a group is a challenge by itself, to pick up the right object. Whether you get the right object or not, is sometimes good look, or using double click etc.
4. Clicking anywhere else with the text tool, sometimes it created a new text field, sometimes not. Don't know whats going on, but in that case, you are not using the workflow, which you cannot trust, to have a specific behaviour. 
5. Going everytime to Esc, sorry, but it is on the other end of the world. I can enter "cmd + enter" without moving anything, for pressing Esc I have to move and stretch out the whole (right) arm.

In my case, cmd + d did not work. If I press it, it deselects the text, but if i press V (for switching to moving tool) it writes still v into the text-frame. 

However, I am really glad about this active and helping community. Even if I found not a good solution yet, i found a lot of helping tipps and people! Thanks so much!!!  
And with the tip of @GizmoStudios i deactivated the shortcut "cmd + enter". So my text layers will not anymore be destroyed and uneditable for the rest of my life,. 

 

[thomaso]

25 minutes ago, db1844 said:

In my case, cmd + d did not work. If I press it, it deselects the text, but if i press V (for switching to moving tool) it writes still v into the text-frame. 

I does never work? Or it just did not when you tried once one time? Give it another chance. – Or do you have another shortcut for "Deselect":

 

In this clip I start entering the frame with text tool, then I move the cursor outside to keep it visible, then I am writing the end, then I hit cmd-d and then some characters to switch between tools. None of them, even the T (for text tool) brings me back into the text:

[thomaso]

32 minutes ago, db1844 said:

1. I had to put Circle, Number in a Group.    
2. Numbers and circles were really small. (So there is no way and no space, to go after editing with the mouse to any text frame or something like that for dragging. 
3. Using mouse in a group is a challenge by itself, to pick up the right object. 

It is offtopic here but since it popped up: I had to do such quite often and sometimes, when I knew every frame would get the same amount of text then I used linked frames. I prepared the first frame with its style and size, then copied it and linked them all. Then I placed the text for all these labels into the first frame. The size and paragraph breaks made the text flow through all prepared frames.

Another option to work with tiny text frames is either to zoom in or to layout them with content and style in a different size (for instance 200 %) and when all are finished you scale them down all together in 1 action and pace them around the illustration. I don't see an advantage (but disadvantage) to edit or format text in grouped text frames.

[db1844]

Thanks @thomaso for your reply. I should try, how workflow will go with linked frames. It sounds fancy. 

Now, i made a screening of that behaviour. I wrote the text, pressed cmd+d, nothing happened 3 or 4 times. After that, i made it over the menu, as you showed me. After clicking several times at the menu bar -> select -> deselect it worked and it deselected the text-frame, as you can see. But after that, if i press V, it writes the letter into the text frame.  
I clicked with the mouse somewhere, and so on, but ....

[Old Bruce]

20 minutes ago, db1844 said:

Now, i made a screening of that behaviour. I wrote the text, pressed cmd+d, nothing happened 3 or 4 times. After that, i made it over the menu, as you showed me. After clicking several times at the menu bar -> select -> deselect it worked and it deselected the text-frame, as you can see. But after that, if i press V, it writes the letter into the text frame.  
I clicked with the mouse somewhere, and so on, but ....

I am not sure but I think I am having the same thing happen here.

In Photo I can hit Command + D all I want but the text caret will remain active. If I hit Escape then I am out of text editing but have the number's text frame selected, then neither Command + D nor Escape will deselect the Frame. I think this is a problem because in Photo Select and Deselect are for Pixels only. In Designer and Publisher Command + D and Escape will immediately deselect all the way from the Text Caret being active in the text Frame.

I don't know if Photo every worked with Command + D and or Escape the way it does with Designer and Publisher. This should probably be reported as a bug in the Photo Bugs forum.

[A_B_C]

1 hour ago, db1844 said:

Using mouse in a group is a challenge by itself, to pick up the right object. Whether you get the right object or not, is sometimes good look, or using double click etc.

Hold down the Command Key in order to click “through” to an object within a group. 

[thomaso]

35 minutes ago, db1844 said:

menu bar -> select -> deselect it worked and it deselected the text-frame, as you can see. But after that, if i press V,

I think at 0:52 min – directly after you used cmd-d via menu successfully and made the blinking text cursor disappeared – you have clicked, still with text tool, and therefore you a.) selected the frame of "8" again and b) made the "v" appear as text.

I see the advantages of artistic text tool that
   1. you don't need to drag a text frame but can start typing directly.
   2. its frame is always as small as possible

But with 1 letter content only it seems to turn to a disadvantage. I was used to normal text frames in such tricky moments: center the text, at least horizontally, make the frame so large that you can grab and handle it.

36 minutes ago, db1844 said:

pressed cmd+d, nothing happened 3 or 4 times.

That is very bad. I don't get this issue. Maybe it becomes more clear with further posts of others. For instance ...:

9 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

In Designer and Publisher Command + D and Escape will immediately deselect

Ah, possibly, and unfortunately. My trials were done in AfPublisher – @db1844, yours in AfPhoto??

 

[A_B_C]

Command + D is only used to deselect a pixel selection in Photo. It has been working like this in Designer too, but now it takes me wonder that it also works for deselecting text and other objects in Publisher. 

Strangely enough, Command + D deselects text and objects in the Publisher Persona and in the Designer Persona, but not in the Photo Persona of Publisher! That’s somehow inconsistent. Hmm.

[A_B_C]

The only key sequence to deselect text in Photo and select the Move Tool afterwards, is first Escape, then V. This is working reliably for me.

[db1844]

14 minutes ago, thomaso said:

I think at 0:52 min – directly after you used cmd-d via menu successfully and made the blinking text cursor disappeared – you have clicked, still with text tool, and therefore you a.) selected the frame of "8" again and b) made the "v" appear as text.

as mentioned, i tried several possibilites. But i think it was at rather sec 12 or 1, when I clicked. however, i did it carefully and slowly, as you could see  and tried it so often, that it can be granted for sure, that my fingers did not accidentally hit the mouse pad. @Old Bruce seems to confirm it.

 

18 minutes ago, thomaso said:

 Ah, possibly, and unfortunately. My trials were done in AfPublisher – @db1844, yours in AfPhoto??

 

yes, it is AF Photo .

 

11 minutes ago, A_B_C said:

The only key sequence to deselect text in Photo and select the Move Tool afterwards, is first Escape, then V. This is working reliably for me.

yes, after a hard working day in the community, you are right.There is only one singular bullet proof option. If i like it or not, I have to explore the ESC button, i think, i never gave attention in my life, or really really seldom. Looking for work, and not looking to escape *haha...*

[thomaso]

36 minutes ago, A_B_C said:

Strangely enough, Command + D deselects text and objects in the Publisher Persona and in the Designer Persona, but not in the Photo Persona of Publisher! That’s somehow inconsistent. Hmm.

I am not into AfPhoto yet – but if this cmd-d shortcut is in its menu, too, and doesn't work ... wouldn't it be worth to post a bug?
Or can it get manually assigned to make it work?

[Old Bruce]

31 minutes ago, thomaso said:

I am not into AfPhoto yet – but if this cmd-d shortcut is in its menu, too, and doesn't work ... wouldn't it be worth to post a bug?
Or can it get manually assigned to make it work?

It is assigned and it does work, just only on pixel selections. There is no way to deselect a selection of layers that I can find at the moment. This is in Photo and Photo Beta.

[Dave W]

New AfPhoto user, here. It's taking a little adjusting after using PS for literally decades, but I gotta say I'm loving AfPhoto so far.

TIL that Command-Enter converts text to Curves, which seemed like a bug to me at first, and a quick google search led me to this convo (sorry I'm late to the party). Muscle memory from years of using other apps has me hitting Cmd-Enter to exit entry mode, and I usually then use the arrow keys to position the text I just entered. Or I'll hit a key to choose another tool. It's weird that I can't do that in AfPhoto, and surprising because you got so many other things right.

So I just want to add my vote for changing the default behavior for Cmd-Enter, and to have it work the same way as the Escape key does now (which is another thing, but I'm gonna choose my battles, lol).

I suspect people who favor the mouse don't mind how Cmd-Enter works right now, since they're used to clicking something else to exit text entry mode. But for those of us who prefer the keyboard, it's terribly awkward to have to switch from the keyboard to the mouse back to the keyboard to perform a textual activity.

Anyway, I hope you take us keyboard users into account, and hear our feedback. Thanks for your consideration, and thanks for such a wonderful app!

[R C-R]

@Dave W: Why not just change the Convert to Curves keyboard shortcut to something else, or even delete that shortcut from Preferences > Keyboard Shortcuts > Layer?