Affinity Designer Leading Multiple Issue

[DesignChief]

I searched the support forum but could not find an answer to this.

 

In Affinity Designer v2.0.0 I am getting some odd leading results which is really hampering me.

I am designing a website UI and would like to use the multiple leading functionality.

When I do this the results don’t appear to be respecting the font size.

 

Eg. 

 

Font size 12px + leading Multiple 1.5 = Leading 18.6px (Should be 18px)

 

Font size 12px + leading Multiple 1 = Leading 12.4px (Should be 12px)

 

Font size 64px + leading Multiple 1 = Leading 70.4px (Should be 64px - 70.4 is a multiple of 1.1)

 

Font size 92px + leading Multiple 1 = Leading 101.2px (Should be 92px - 101.2 is a multiple of 1.1)

 

I cannot find where this multiple of 1.1 is coming from.

I have checked the Base style, tried in a new document, reset text styles etc but I get the same results.

 

The only way I can get the leading accurate is to use exact pixel leading units but this is a pain to manage in styles and overrides.

 

Is there a problem with leading Multiple functionality?

Or is there something I am missing?

[MikeTO]

Hi and welcome to the forum. This is as designed and it's the same as other applications that offer this feature such as Microsoft Word. Multiple 1.5 means 1.5 times the default line spacing. The default line spacing for 12pt type is 12.4 which multiples by 1.5 results in 18.6

If you want exactly 18pt spacing, use Exactly 18 rather than Multiple 1.5.

Cheers

[DesignChief]

Thanks Mike, it’s a pity it works like that but at least I know now..

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[Paul Chaandler]

When I am using at 14pt type in a text box and try to set the leading to 15pt it actually jumps to 21pt. I have tried using all the options i.e. Exactly, Percentage and Default. I have also tried changing it in the Context toolbar and the Paragraph panel. I am using Open Sans regular but I have tried changing the typeface and it makes no difference.

[walt.farrell]

7 minutes ago, Paul Chaandler said:

When I am using at 14pt type in a text box and try to set the leading to 15pt it actually jumps to 21pt. I have tried using all the options i.e. Exactly, Percentage and Default. I have also tried changing it in the Context toolbar and the Paragraph panel. I am using Open Sans regular but I have tried changing the typeface and it makes no difference.

Welcome to the Serif Affinity forums.

You've posted in a topic about using Designer, but I'm going to guess you're using Publisher.

If I'm right, you probably have the Baseline Grid active, and that grid controls your leading.

[MikeTO]

11 minutes ago, Paul Chaandler said:

When I am using at 14pt type in a text box and try to set the leading to 15pt it actually jumps to 21pt. I have tried using all the options i.e. Exactly, Percentage and Default. I have also tried changing it in the Context toolbar and the Paragraph panel. I am using Open Sans regular but I have tried changing the typeface and it makes no difference.

I think you're reporting a different issue. DesignChief was asking why Multiple doesn't multiply the font height by the entered multiple and the answer was that Affinity multiples the default leading by the entered multiple.

Your question is why leading of 15pt (I assume you mean leading = Exactly 15pt) leads to leading of 21pt. Walt suggested you may be using a baseline grid in Publisher which is quite likely. But you might also be using leading override.

1. Leading is a paragraph attribute set in the Paragraph panel or Context Bar. Set this to Exactly and 15pt as shown below.
2. Leading Override is a character attribute set in the Character panel. If you set this to 21pt then it wouldn't matter what you type into paragraph leading, this will override it.

[Paul Chaandler]

Thanks to you both for your replies. It does seem to be to do with the leading override. How do I turn it off??

 

[Paul Chaandler]

PS Yes, I am using Publisher - sorry for getting on the wrong thread!

[Old Bruce]

15 minutes ago, Paul Chaandler said:

Thanks to you both for your replies. It does seem to be to do with the leading override. How do I turn it off??

 

Select all the text (use the text caret) and call up the Character Panel. It will most likely show 0, that is going to be wrong. Set it to 1 and then to 0. Toggling it like that will change all the text to have an override of 1pt then back to 0pts. It is important to have all the text selected.

[jameslucas]

@DesignChief, I know your post is a couple months old now, but I wanted to note that, contrary to what MikeTO suggests, the secret multiplier thing is neither standard across programs (Publisher plays it straight) nor consistent from font to font. To that end, if you have any flexibility in choosing your typeface, you can find many fonts that aren’t victims of Designer’s well-intentioned but unhelpful tinkering. One example comparison:

Times New Roman’s line-spacing multiplier in…

• Microsoft Word – 1.200
• Affinity Designer – 1.042
• Affinity Publisher – 1.000

Impact’s line-spacing multiplier in… 

• Microsoft Word – 1.220
• Affinity Designer – 1.000 (!!)
• Affinity Publisher – 1.000

Obviously Times New Roman and Impact are not viable substitutes for each other (and very probably not for the font you are using), but the point is just that there are ways to get around Designer being unhelpfully helpful.

Edited February 14, 2023 by jameslucas
missing preposition

[MikeTO]

1 hour ago, jameslucas said:

@DesignChief, I know your post is a couple months old now, but I wanted to note that contrary to what MikeTO suggests, the secret multiplier thing is neither standard across programs (Publisher plays it straight) nor consistent from font to font.

It's the default line spacing that varies between fonts, not the multiplier. I might not have this all straight because I haven't edited a font since dinosaurs roamed the earth but a font's typo line gap and hhead line gap values define the default line spacing. I believe Adobe ignores these font settings and uses a fixed 20% (or whatever you choose) which is easy to explain and understand. Publisher respects the font creator's design choice but it's more confusing and doesn't produce useful results with all fonts.

I'll use a few of the standard macOS fonts as examples. Publisher will produce 12pt leading for Adobe Garamond Pro, 10.3271pt for Arial, and 10.4248pt for Times Roman (not Times New Roman). Adobe Garamond Pro has typo and hhead line gaps of 200 for an em size of 1000 which is unsurprisingly 20% and results in Publisher setting 10pt type with 12pt default leading. Arial has a typo line gap of 270 for an em of 2048. As a percentage, that's 10% larger than Garamond so you might expect the leading to be even larger but Arial has an hhead line gap of 0 so Publisher must be using the hhead value instead. I'm unsure why the leading isn't simply 10 instead of 10.3271, I should edit a font and play with the other values to figure it out but I don't have time now.

Times Roman has typo and hhead line gaps of 0 and I bet this is why Adobe went with a fixed percentage. IIRC, PostScript Type 1 lacked a line gap setting so PageMaker introduced a 20% default. But even after TrueType there were lots of old and low quality fonts floating around that lacked line gap values so Adobe probably just kept using the 20% rule.

As a new app Affinity has an opportunity to do something better and respecting the font creators' wishes is nice. But perhaps Affinity could go a step further and use a 20% rule for fonts that lack the line gap value to produce better results for those fonts.

Cheers

[Paul Chaandler]

Wow - thanks to you all for helping me out on this. Since the last time of posting I have been working round the problem but I haven't solved it! Great to have more ideas to try. This seems to be a highly complex issue and I am surprised that more people don't have a problem with it.

[MikeTO]

5 hours ago, Paul Chaandler said:

I am surprised that more people don't have a problem with it.

A good practice is to always used fixed leading (i.e., exactly). Even if the default is exactly what you want a lot of people prefer to specify the leading value to avoid surprises. And some of us use baseline grids which takes the level of control even further. I just can't abide the thought of things not lining up.

This is a dated reference now, but my favourite job description of all time asked 'are you somebody who feels compelled to straighten a stack of floppy disks?' 🙂 

[jameslucas]

@MikeTO You’re totally correct that the value Designer is using here is hheaLineGap. I called it a “secret multiplier” because it, like all things in vector fonts, scales with type size, and I wanted to be clear that it wasn’t a static value like a Publisher document’s baseline spacing. In fairness, it’s not as stupidly secret as the multiplier Word uses, since that (as far as I know) is not stated anywhere within the program, but it’s still much more opaque than the easily modified “Auto Leading” value Adobe uses (and sets to 120% by default).

If respect for type designers’ agency is what drove Affinity to default to using hheaLineGap in Designer, I certainly applaud that impulse, but given that hheaLineGap is so poorly supported across fonts, especially those created in the past 20 years, and often unhelpfully small in fonts from the ’90s, it seems like its integration adds a lot of complication for very little payoff. Admittedly, I’m no webtype expert, and it’s possible this is something Affinity adopted to better parallel some behavior baked into CSS or whatever, but I still question the balance of the tradeoffs.

Using typoLineGap strikes me as a little more sane than using hheaLineGap, but personally I’d say the real potential for a ‘Multiple’ leading setting would be for it to work not from a scalable, font-determined value but from a static, user-determined value (i.e., baseline spacing). It would be a huge benefit to say “vertically space all body text Y pts and vertically space Header 1 text at Y × 1½ and all footnote text Y × ¾” and never have to do the arithmetic.

Expanding on the datapoints you offered, I made a little table of values for fonts I’ve used recently (or, in the case of Eurostile, used in middle school).

 

[MikeTO]

2 hours ago, jameslucas said:

...for fonts I’ve used recently (or, in the case of Eurostile, used in middle school). 

I loved Eurostile in the late eighties. 🙂 

I have always use fixed leading in page layout apps so I'm not fussed about the approach to default leading. I will confess to using Multiple in MS Word though.

[jameslucas]

11 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

I will confess to using Multiple in MS Word though.

Of course–it’s like three clicks fewer than the other options! And it’s not like the other options allow you to escape their secret line spacing math anyway!

[DesignChief]

Hi all, thanks for the expert guidance on the default leading etc. It’s very useful to see this info and explains a few other nuances regarding font usage in various apps.

Also, thanks to @lacerto for the workaround solution to use percentage for line heights, this is the closest to the behaviour I’m looking for.

It would be great to see a unitless line-height option added to Designer as that’s what is generally considered best practice for CSS for web builds.
That’s what I thought Multiple was for but now I know!

 

 

 

[lacerto]

Obsolete.