Non-destructive develop persona on Jpg immages in Affinity Photo 2.0

[JAClel]

Hello, 

I use Affinity Photo for color editing my 3D rendenrings, so my starting file is a jpg and not a raw file.

What I would like to do, is to to apply some development settings to my jpg, export the immage and then be able to open the affinity file after months and keep adjusting the the development settings from where I left them.

Let's say I apply +30 saturation, I export the immmage, then if the client ask me for some changes I would like to be able to open the affinity file again, go under the development persona, and find the saturation slider to still be at +30, and be able to move it to let's say +20.

I understand that with Affinity Photo 2.0 this is now possible with raw files. But I work with .jpg.

Is there something I can do to achieve the same flexibility with jpg?

Thank you

[AlainP]

You just open your jpg file in Affinity Photo, do whatever you want with your editing and then "save" in the Affinity photo format.

You then export your "new" jpg file under a new name and that's it.

Whenever you want to modify your edits, you just reopen the Affinity file and when you're done you export again. You then can save it under a new filename or just overwrite the previous one.

 

[NotMyFault]

You can do almost everything in Photo Persona with non- destructive adjustments or filters, and re-edit any time later.

[JAClel]

How?

Because I have the software open in front of me right now, and I swear the develop persona is actually destructive. Once you apply the settigns and go back to the photo prsona, then you can't get back again to develop persona and keep editing from where you left.

Of course I am not saying that you lose the original file. But I am saying that I can't move back and forth from the develop persona and the other persona, and keep adjusitng the develop settings.

Is there anything that I am missing?

[rvst]

17 minutes ago, JAClel said:

How?

Because I have the software open in front of me right now, and I swear the develop persona is actually destructive.

Why are you working in the develop persona for a jpeg? That's for RAW files.

Do all your adjustments in the photo persona and then they're non-destructive, unless you paint directly on the layer or use one of the tools on the left toolbar

[h_d]

Why use Develop Persona at all for this workflow? Use Photo Persona, save your image as an .afphoto document with all adjustments/filters included, then export to .jpg when you want to show it to your client. You can open the .afphoto document months later and modify the adjustments and filters, then export to .jpg again.

[JAClel]

How do you apply the same type of adjustments of the Develop Persona inside the Photo Persona?

Usually I need to tweak exposure, contrast, clarity, saturation, lights, shadow, vignette, tone, detail and all these type of settings.. Is there a way to apply those inside the Photo Persona?

[h_d]

Layer - New Adjustment Layer is a good place to start:

 

 

Also checkout Layer - New Live Filter Layer:

 

 

All of these are non-destructive.

 

 

[Komatös]

Non-destructive edit works only with raw files in the develope persona! All other formats are as they are, developed! 

[paulie.reklama]

Hi, I really understand JAClel's question. I am mostly working with jpg (architecture visualisation, etc.), Develop persona has better faster and more intuitive environment for quick editing, every basic tools what you need are opened, you're just pulling the sliders without working with layers. And what I am absolutely missing in the Photo persona is live filter with perspective correction tools based on sliders (horizontal, vertical, rotate, scale) like in Develop persona. It is absolutely essential for quick and serious work with architecture photography/visualisation in JPG.

I thought that might be the only reason I would switch to the new version of Afiinity 2. So non-destructive JPG develop persona is not possible in the new version?

[R C-R]

18 minutes ago, paulie.reklama said:

So non-destructive JPG develop persona is not possible in the new version?

There really is no such thing as a jpeg object in an Affinity document. All raster objects are rendered either as pixel or image layers & only converted ('flattened') to raster formats during export to JPG, PNG or similar bitmap formats.

So if you use the Develop persona on a raster layer, it is destructive (other than through using the History panel to undo the edits, using snapshots, etc.). This is why it is a good idea to duplicate a raster layer before editing it in the Develop persona.

What AP V2 does have that V1 did not is non-destructive development of RAW files.

[paulie.reklama]

10 hours ago, R C-R said:

There really is no such thing as a jpeg object in an Affinity document. All raster objects are rendered either as pixel or image layers & only converted ('flattened') to raster formats during export to JPG, PNG or similar bitmap formats.

So if you use the Develop persona on a raster layer, it is destructive (other than through using the History panel to undo the edits, using snapshots, etc.). This is why it is a good idea to duplicate a raster layer before editing it in the Develop persona.

What AP V2 does have that V1 did not is non-destructive development of RAW files.

Thank for your response, I understand all this principles, but the reason for having the ability to non-destructively edit JPGs in Develop persona is absolutely the same as with RAW, i.e. it significantly speed up my work, also it does mean reducing the overall file size and reducing the total number of layers within the file.

[Old Bruce]

To create the ability to non-destructively edit in the Develop Persona the various raster file formats would require a container for the raster information from the PNG/JPEG/TIFF etc. Then the container would need to also hold the values of all the various adjustments and apply them to the raster layer. You would have a layer that is no longer pixels and this would mean some things wouldn't work/be available in the Photo persona as well as the other personas.

It could be possible to make such a thing but there would be bugs. Many many bugs. My two cents, I would rather Affinity fix the many many bugs they already have.

[kinvermark]

Not true.     As  I have pointed out previously,   you can already edit DNG non-destructively in the develop persona and DNG's can already contain tiff, jpeg , etc.    The problem is this workflow adds an extra step (e.g. convert jpegs to DNG in Adobe Bridge) and the DNG support in Affinity is a little wonky  (WB is off, maybe some tone issues?) 

BTW,  an optimistic " reading of the tea leaves" would be that once Serif gets these non-destructive workflow issues worked out they can connect an Affinity DAM via studiolink and have a really great integration for working with larger numbers of photos.

 

[R C-R]

27 minutes ago, kinvermark said:

Not true.     As  I have pointed out previously,   you can already edit DNG non-destructively in the develop persona and DNG's can already contain tiff, jpeg , etc. 

The DNG format does not contain any raster images other than optional preview thumbnails. This is why like other RAW formats they must be developed into raster images using the minimally processed sensor data & the metadata stored in them.

For a detailed discussion of what RAW is, how it is processed, & what it contains you can refer to https://affinityspotlight.com/article/raw-actually/ & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format#File_contents.

[kinvermark]

@ R C-R   

As per the document you linked... "JPEG is often embedded into the RAW file, and may be full ...   resolution"

I am not suggesting this as the ultimate, best workflow, I am offering evidence that it is certainly technically possible. 

What I, and many others are asking Serif for it to extend the far superior workflow now available to raw to include non raw.  

 

What I do  mildly object to is when forum members self-appoint as "gatekeepers" and continually knock back requests that they do not find interesting or cannot conceptualize the need for due to some strange myopia.  This is a bit condescending IMO.  

I would like to hear from the Affinity team about this -  not another forum member who has no decision making authority; that's pointless.

 

[R C-R]

14 minutes ago, kinvermark said:

As per the document you linked... "JPEG is often embedded into the RAW file, and may be full ...   resolution"

The full quote is 

 

Quote

Embedded JPEG: a JPEG is often embedded into the RAW file, and may be full or partial resolution. It’s often used to preview the image on the camera’s LCD screen, and can be used for initial previewing in RAW processing software whilst the actual RAW file is being processed and thumbnailed in the background.

Note the last part -- whether full or partial it can be used as an initial preview while the actual RAW file is being processed. IOW, it is a proxy for the processed file but the processed (developed) file may be substantially different from that preview.

20 minutes ago, kinvermark said:

What I do  mildly object to is when forum members self-appoint as "gatekeepers" and continually knock back requests that they do not find interesting or cannot conceptualize the need for due to some strange myopia.  This is a bit condescending IMO.  

All I am trying to do is explain why editing an already processed raster image layer (be it from a JPEG or from any other raster image file source) cannot be edited non-destructively in AP's Develop persona. This can be done for RAW files only if the data in the RAW file used to process it is retained during development, in AP2 by using the linked or embedded development option. If, like a JPEG file, it is developed into a pixel image layer, this is not possible because the data has already been processed & discarded.

[kinvermark]

Clearly  this is where your theory, and my practical reality diverge.

 

Try this:  Use Bridge to convert a few tiff's to DNG.   Bring those into Affinity Pub.   Use the Photo develop persona to alter them (e.g. turn sat to nil)  and commit the changes NON-destructively as "linked."     They will show up in Publisher as altered.   Now go back to the Photo develop persona and alter them again or reset them to original.  Whatever.  You can do this ad-nauseum until you want to export your final doc.   No pixels are harmed.

 

 

 

 

 

[R C-R]

10 minutes ago, kinvermark said:

Try this:  Use Bridge to convert a few tiff's to DNG.   Bring those into Affinity Pub.   Use the Photo develop persona to alter them (e.g. turn sat to nil)  and commit the changes NON-destructively as "linked."     They will show up in Publisher as altered.   Now go back to the Photo develop persona and alter them again or reset them to original.  Whatever.  You can do this ad-nauseum until you want to export your final doc.   No pixels are harmed.

Again, this is because they are linked files & thus still contain all the data used to process the file separately from the processed image. You can't do that with an unlinked or not embedded file (be it from a RAW format file or a raster image file like a JPEG) because it is simply a pixel layer with no retained info about how it was processed.

 

IOW, in the latter case it is not a separate file, it is just a layer in the document.

[kinvermark]

Que?  Now you are talking about linked v not linked?   

This is getting silly.    The conversation is about  using non-raw in the develop persona in a non-destructive workflow.  Obviously that means they must be linked!

PS Somebody please try the workflow I have described and share your results.  Thx.

Edited December 11, 2022 by kinvermark
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[R C-R]

5 minutes ago, kinvermark said:

Que?  Now you are talking about linked v not linked?

I did that because you mentioned bringing a DNG file into AP 2 as a linked file. 

7 minutes ago, kinvermark said:

The conversation is about  using non-raw in the develop persona in a non-destructive workflow.  Obviously that means they must be linked!

How can you link a JPEG file into AP? Have you tried doing that?

[paulie.reklama]

7 hours ago, Old Bruce said:

To create the ability to non-destructively edit in the Develop Persona the various raster file formats would require a container for the raster information from the PNG/JPEG/TIFF etc. Then the container would need to also hold the values of all the various adjustments and apply them to the raster layer. You would have a layer that is no longer pixels and this would mean some things wouldn't work/be available in the Photo persona as well as the other personas.

It could be possible to make such a thing but there would be bugs. Many many bugs. My two cents, I would rather Affinity fix the many many bugs they already have.

I don't know much of the internal structure of the application, but my idea is that the non-destructive Develop persona interface for JPGs (and other non-RAW) could simply behave like a live filter. I don't see many problems with this.

[R C-R]

18 minutes ago, paulie.reklama said:

I don't know much of the internal structure of the application, but my idea is that the non-destructive Develop persona interface for JPGs (and other non-RAW) could simply behave like a live filter. I don't see many problems with this.

That's an interesting idea that you might want to post to the Feature Requests forum.

[kinvermark]

1 hour ago, R C-R said:

I did that because you mentioned bringing a DNG file into AP 2 as a linked file. 

How can you link a JPEG file into AP? Have you tried doing that?

Via the DNG....  I explained that from the very beginning, but perhaps as it was in response to "Old Bruce" and a continuation of another thread (that you were a part of ) this has been misunderstood.   To reiterate:  the FACT that a DNG created from tiff or jpeg files can be non-destructively edited in the develop persona provides evidence that this is technically possible.  It is not an ideal workflow nor am I recommending it or asking for it as a feature request. 

The generalization of the feature request is simply to support - in some way - the non-destructive editing of jpeg, tiff, etc.  in the same manner as RAW files currently can be edited in the develop module.   Serif can call it something else if they want, but given that they already support jpeg, etc. (destructively) in the RAW develop module they may prefer to keep naming consistent.

So as paulie.reklama 's idea - its just same thing with different name.

 

[R C-R]

2 minutes ago, kinvermark said:

The generalization of the feature request is simply to support - in some way - the non-destructive editing of jpeg, tiff, etc.  in the same manner as RAW files currently can be edited in the develop module. 

The way (in V2) RAW files can be edited non-destructively is by using either the "RAW Layer (Embedded)" or the "RAW Layer (Linked)" Output: option. This is possible because that retains all the data used to render a raster image from them. Note that in AP 2 neither one is output as a pixel layer -- it is still the entire file, including all that data. That data is not destroyed when the file is edited in the Develop Persona.

That won't work for JPEG files because they already have been processed into a raster images when they are opened in the app.  IOW, they no longer are JPEG files, just simple pixel layers. This is the same as when a RAW file is developed using the destructive Pixel Layer Output option.

Even if we could link or embed the actual JPEG file in the AP document, there is no way for that file type to retain info about any edits made to it. That would require a change in the JPEG format itself.

42 minutes ago, kinvermark said:

So as paulie.reklama 's idea - its just same thing with different name.

That idea does not suggest treating non-destructively editing non-RAW files in the same way as non-destructively editing RAW files in AP2. For that, the suggestion is to treat the edits as a (potentially very complicated) live filter layer attached to the rendered pixel layer.