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Total Disregard for the Printing Industry


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Super excited when I got an email about V2 and even downloaded the free trials, but after looking at the lack of added features, it's a big pass. I'll wait for V3 or V6 or V9, what ever it takes to make this software compatible with the printing industry (Almost 1 Trillion Dollar (US$) industry worldwide).

There is still no support for overprint fills and strokes for ink trapping and color mixing, spot or CMYK color separations, non-printable layers for die cut rules or digital finishing equipment. Let's not even mention the still clunky interface. It's not workflow, it's work stoppage. Need to pull down menus to change stroke weights and type sizes, really???

I have worked in the graphic arts industry for over 40 years from paste up and film to digital prepress and digital printing, and every major graphic software package since the original Pagemaker. I know a thing or two about the industry. The reason professionals use Adobe products is because they support this kind of work. Our designers and prepress technicians agree that Affinity files are challenging to work with, and the only thing worse is Canva crap. We charge extra for such files because of the time it takes to make them work with our equipment.

Bottom line is if your like me and don't want to pay for subscription software, be prepared to pay for it on the back end.

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1 hour ago, Serigrafique said:

Need to pull down menus to change stroke weights and type sizes, really???

Out of curiosity, how would you expect this to work?

For type sizes there are keyboard shortcuts for bigger/smaller, but I would think you would want it to be more specific in that industry, so you could either pick it on the context toolbar (same as with stroke width), or type it into that field directly... ??

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On 11/29/2022 at 6:15 PM, Serigrafique said:

How about simple up/down arrows on the menu bar or pallets for quick mouse clicks? Way faster to make adjustments! (in addition to the existing pull downs, sliders, keyboard shortcuts and direct entry)

You just need to click the field then press the up/down key.

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@Serigrafique 

I knew the responses would be exactly like the ones above. A perfect example of Parkinson's bicycle-shed effect.

I'm more curious about what's really interesting in this feedback:

Quote

There is still no support for overprint fills and strokes for ink trapping and color mixing, spot or CMYK color separations, non-printable layers for die cut rules or digital finishing equipment.

It is important, to say the least.

 1) You have completely wrecked the layers panel, Serif.

2) I recommend Reddit groups instead of this forum. Not the same few bot-like users replying to everything, a wider representation of users, fewer fanboys, more qualified users. In short, better!

3) I was here to report bugs and submit improvement requests for professional work professionally in a large setup and to bring a lot of knowledge from the world, i.e. professional product development, web- and software development, usability, user experience design and accessibility. I actually know what I am talking about!

BUT! We are phasing out Designer and Affinity in 2022 Q1 - and replacing it with feature complete and algorithmically competent alternatives.
Publisher is unsuitable for serious use, and was never adopted.

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Oooh I would love to hear the workarounds that are necessary when working with Affinity files. Also Oof Canva. I am largely working in web, but occasionally I am asked to do branding. Sometimes it's necessary to rework old assets and so I get print work that way. Plus the techie side of things, I can just eat right up listening to the details...

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30 minutes ago, François R said:

I knew the responses would be exactly like the ones above. A perfect example of Parkinson's bicycle-shed effect.

I know what you're getting at, but these are more akin to tricky reputation discrediting. They're attempting to suggest the OP is wrong about the bike shed, therefore he's wrong in his views on nuclear plant design. Or something to that effect.

The bigger truth is that the lack of care about the small details of UI/UX are indicative and symptomatic of the malaise that's caused the exact macro problems with print the OP is raising. 

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5 hours ago, Serigrafique said:

Bottom line is if your like me and don't want to pay for subscription software, be prepared to pay for it on the back end.

Let me translate this to designers: no matter what software you use (Adobe, Affinity, whatever), if you're doing print stuff, do not send source files to the printers. They will find any reason to charge you fees for anything they don't like. Instead, learn how to prepare a proper print-ready PDF. Talk to your printer about this. If they don't accept PDFs then find a printer from the 21st century.

If you've used Adobe apps for 40 years, learn the differences between their apps and Affinity's. Don't just assume that everything must work the same. For example:

  • In Affinity overprinting is applied to global colors, not on individual fills and strokes. You have to adjust your workflow if you do overprinting.
  • "Need to pull down menus to change stroke weights and type sizes" – The shortcuts for changing the stroke width are the square brackets [  ]. The shortcuts for changing the font size are the same like in Adobe apps. Learn the software if you want to use it.
  • "non-printable layers for die cut rules" - This is important only if you output files directly from the source application. But for a PDF-based workflow, just make a spot color and name it "dieline" or "FPO" (for position only). 

 

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19 hours ago, tudor said:

Let me translate this to designers: no matter what software you use (Adobe, Affinity, whatever), if you're doing print stuff, do not send source files to the printers. They will find any reason to charge you fees for anything they don't like. Instead, learn how to prepare a proper print-ready PDF. Talk to your printer about this. If they don't accept PDFs then find a printer from the 21st century.

Printers will charge fees for anything that takes extra time. And yes, communicate with your printer BEFORE starting a project. Every print process has it's own set of variables. You can't expect designers to provide all those variations, that is the job of the prepress department. Often it is faster to manipulate files in native applications, but if the tools are not there it will cost more.

If you've used Adobe apps for 40 years, learn the differences between their apps and Affinity's. Don't just assume that everything must work the same. For example:

Adobe apps have not been around for 40 years, but converting paste up, camera, film and assembly to a digital workflow occurred in that time. Every major application accomplished the same result, but had different approaches and terminology. I have worked with Affinity's apps for 2 years now and have a pretty good handle on what it can and cannot do. The Affinity suite just cannot accomplish some basic functions because it still lacks the tools.

When printing multiple spot colors, some trapping must be applied to individual stokes and fills. A global overprint will not always work.

Mouse clicks are faster than keyboard shortcuts, IMHO.

Spot color die lines knock out the image under it unless the layer is turned off before the PDF is created, but then the die line is not available for post processing.

I will continue to use my Affinity 1.x apps at home because they are elegant and powerful, I just won't invest in an update that doesn't add anything that I need. When I work on print projects, I will just reboot into an older OS and use my paid for Adobe CS apps.

 

 

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22 hours ago, tudor said:

"Need to pull down menus to change stroke weights and type sizes" – The shortcuts for changing the stroke width are the square brackets [  ]. The shortcuts

This was used as an example of the many self contradictory EXAMPLES of a general and common (yes, both) lack of consideration and care in the design of the UI and UX in (you guessed it) design software. The UX of these apps deserves criticism - it's a bigger failing than the lack of features as improving the UI and UX would improve the lives of all users. If you can't see that you've never used well designed apps and are suffering from some form of Stockholm syndrome without realising it.

Further, attempting to refute a serious argument by mischaracterising an example of the symptoms that propagate from the general lack of care and design only makes you look like a pedant without insight into contexts and wholes.

And it's patently clear the OP knows far more about complex and artful print work than you do, so there's no need to attempt to talk down to them, or anyone else. Ironically.

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4 hours ago, Serigrafique said:

Spot color die lines knock out the image under it unless the layer is turned off before the PDF is created, but then the die line is not available for post processing.

You can enable overprinting for that spot color.

Just to be clear: I'm not trying to convince you that Affinity apps are as capable as Adobe's. Far from it. I'm just saying that if you've decided to use them for whatever reason, you should at least try some helpful workarounds and features that you may not be aware of.

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On 11/30/2022 at 1:15 AM, Serigrafique said:

CMYK color separations

For those who do not know what screen printing is, it is a printing technique that uses stencils, formerly made of silk, which are placed between the ink and the substrate (paper, cardboard, textile, metal, glass, wood, etc.). Its advantages are the opacity and duration of the ink. It is the result that we see on souvenirs, personalised objects, vehicles and shop windows.

@Serigraphic, I am only interested in CMYK separation here.

The Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and Black plate separations were a technique I used a lot in the past for magazine printing. They allowed me to obtain 4 typons that the operator had to position precisely by hand in order to obtain the four successive inks on the printed paper, then the various printers I work with asked me to stop making this CMYK separation.

It remains that the separation of the 4 or more separate files would indeed be useful in certain trades such as yours.

I have just phoned my main printer for you, who also does screen printing. He tells me that they prefer CMYK separation, but that they can do the separation themselves from the PDF for some extra work. Perhaps you should look into this and see if it is more cost effective or not? And report back.

6 cœurs, 12 processus - Windows 11 pro - 4K - DirectX 12 - Suite universelle Affinity (Affinity  Publisher, Affinity Designer, Affinity Photo).

Mais je vous le demande, peut-on imaginer une police sans sérifs ?

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9 minutes ago, Pyanepsion said:

I have just phoned my main printer for you, who also does screen printing. He tells me that they prefer CMYK separation, but that they can do the separation themselves from the PDF for some extra work.

25 years ago I too had to go to the printer each week, with a bunch of separated CMYK clear films for printing a magazine. Nowadays, if a printer asked me to do the same, I'd much rather send the PDF and let them do this.

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@tudor, Yes, that was another time, another century, what shall I say? another millennium! Now, for paper printing, you don't even have to go anywhere: I've never seen the face of the saleswoman I work with at my printer's...

6 cœurs, 12 processus - Windows 11 pro - 4K - DirectX 12 - Suite universelle Affinity (Affinity  Publisher, Affinity Designer, Affinity Photo).

Mais je vous le demande, peut-on imaginer une police sans sérifs ?

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6 hours ago, Pyanepsion said:

I've never seen the face of the saleswoman I work with at my printer's...

That's the very sad reality today. I work with three printers. One is on the opposite side of the world, and I have never talked with someone from that shop. There is a huge communication chain, where I receive answers only from the intermediaries from other companies.

The other two are two local small companies – one specialized in fast printing, the other in high-quality printing. They are incredibly proud of their work, and they always invite me to visit their labs, and are always happy to help by suggesting the best solutions.

All of them just want a PDF from me.

Paolo

 

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On 11/30/2022 at 7:34 AM, tudor said:

In Affinity overprinting is applied to global colors, not on individual fills and strokes. You have to adjust your workflow if you do overprinting.

Now, this works. But would you say, that it is logical to need two times the same colour (i.e. the same CMYK percentages) to have it one time with overprint and another time not overprinting? Say you want to have magenta to be not overprinting in general, but one shape with the colour magenta should overprint (a yellow shape to get a nice red). Therefore you need to set up a second mangenta colour with overprinting turned on. Mm 🤔, not sure if this is really a logic workflow, because after all it's still the same ink and still ends up on the same color separation.

I would say, that overprinting is rather shape based and should be adjusted for shapes, because it determines if a shape is part of a specific separation plate or not.

This is something that can be found throughout the Affinity programs - breaking with traditional workflows for... - well, what for? Just to be different?

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47 minutes ago, chessboard said:

But would you say, that it is logical to need two times the same colour (i.e. the same CMYK percentages) to have it one time with overprint and another time not overprinting?

Obviously this needs to be fixed and improved. What we can do is post feature requests and pester Affinity people to implement them.

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If you need color seps with trapping try this plugin it works...

https://pacificpixel.com/product/color-separation-software-for-affinity-photo-ipad-mac-and-windows-high-end-spot-color-simulated-process/

 

And if you need line art from photo here is another plugin...

https://pacificpixel.com/product/line-art-from-your-photos-in-affinity-photo-designer-for-ipad-windows-and-mac-with-blackline/

Note: these are quick fixes until Affinity updates to newer versions of the software...if you need it now and not wait for future updates.

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I've heard different sides of this advice over the years. Use a simple recipe (contacting printer first and getting a checklist), with the goal to avoid fees. And yes, that these fees get added fairly easily if it's not done just so, we were warned. So contact first... and pray you can pick up their needs through osmosis. So I understand that argument well. That's why I like to hear from the print-side as well technically speaking, because through a more thorough understanding the way they operate, I can have a better mindset to be privy to these problems during communication.

It is hard to find a good printer, even local to where I am. When you do find, expect to pay through the nose. I found one company for my prints who will take me in the backroom and let me proof adjustments. Others we just send up into a cloud/backroom somewhere and pray and hope that at least the result is not too terribly off from what you intend... somewhat grateful l do a lot of ink (grayscale digital) works... crazy field.

Anyway, still learning... and much to learn.

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1 hour ago, debraspicher said:

It is hard to find a good printer, even local to where I am.

I would have expected this to be easy, in a big town in one of the most tech-savvy places in the world. Can you explain this with the crisis of the small shops, and a concentration of the whole print industry into fewer, bigger, more inaccessible companies?

Paolo

 

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24 minutes ago, PaoloT said:

I would have expected this to be easy, in a big town in one of the most tech-savvy places in the world. Can you explain this with the crisis of the small shops, and a concentration of the whole print industry into fewer, bigger, more inaccessible companies?

Paolo

 

That's it in a nutshell. Most of the business is moving online. The shops I find to do color accurate prints tend to be the small shops, so they're going to charge more. It's worth it in the end for accurate results and I can just pass the cost to the client. I do my own profiling, but it's necessary to check with the printer. The bigger shops require volume, but funnily enough the "sign companies", they don't seem to care about color at all and that seems to be a vast majority of the local shops. There's a 'known' company that does, but they only take big big orders and won't even consider small jobs. This can be explained by understanding our demographics. Houston has a 10:1 ~ 20:1 small business to chain ratio, at least... it's actually quite good the conditions for small business here, but the city is much more blue collar, thus cost-aware, so clients here expect reasonable work but for "reasonable" (ie cheaper) pricing. So finding a printer that even cares about color profiling is more difficult closer to me, because that base is so small. The city is actually quite spread out in footprint so can take an hour to cross town, just to give an idea of how much area that can cover. (Houston is also crazy polluted with signage just to add in another clue...)

When I was in MD, near DC, the ratio was quite the opposite. Mainly chains and far fewer small businesses by comparison. We rented a home with a screening business inside of it, but they stopped doing it commercially because running a small shop and charging what was practical was not feasible. So, the shops that did exist they could only justify their costs by delivering high quality. This meant that yes, it was very good quality, but pricey and so to be "cost-flexible", it meant sending jobs online. Though, in school we could hear from word of mouth of a "local" printer that would be run from someone's home. They'd take jobs and do all the calibrations on their own, so the results were reasonable, but the price was reduced since their overhead was smaller. It was win-win for the printer who was usually a designer who needed to justify their crazy equipment costs. Also, for students who care about quality and smaller clients who didn't necessarily need large jobs, so the overhead was more reasonable for them.

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2 hours ago, taustin said:

If you need color seps with trapping try this plugin it works...

https://pacificpixel.com/product/color-separation-software-for-affinity-photo-ipad-mac-and-windows-high-end-spot-color-simulated-process/

 

And if you need line art from photo here is another plugin...

https://pacificpixel.com/product/line-art-from-your-photos-in-affinity-photo-designer-for-ipad-windows-and-mac-with-blackline/

Note: these are quick fixes until Affinity updates to newer versions of the software...if you need it now and not wait for future updates.

Thanks for the link. Interesting that high-end plugins are available for Affinity. Back in the day I bought a few for Illustrator and Photoshop, and was happy with the results. Certainly a viable approach. 

Adobe had a web marketplace for plugins. Maybe they still do. Serif already has an add-ons section on the main website, which could be a good place for third party developers to be highlighted.

Edited by Aongus Collins
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This [overprint colors issue] is a huge, glaring omission.

And one that I didn't realize existed. (Clearly, I haven't been using Affinity software for commercial printing.) For reference, I have been involved in print design for many years and have designed everything from newspaper ads to books with enormous print runs on offset, web and digital. I have traveled across the country on multi-day press checks.

My affinity for Affinity is, in part, due to my loathing for Adobe and their rental model. I imagine this is true for many of the folks here. I have happily supported and promoted Affinity/Serif for offering a "viable alternative" to Adobe. But I may have to rethink this as this alone makes the software non-viable for anyone involved in print. Having to create multiple versions of the same color to have it overprint is ludicrous makes for a completely unworkable workflow. Overprinting should always be available to set on the object level. Always. Period.

Serif/Affinity Team...
Please take this seriously. We are all rooting for you to be David in a Goliath industry. If you don't get these absolute basics right, you will never have the commercial success that you, and us, want you to have.

Edited by _Th
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