BofG Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 On 11/30/2022 at 7:18 AM, Paul Mudditt said: Should we be also asking Adobe where is there .(afphoto & afdesign & afpub) V1 & V2 import from Affinity. Yes we should. The answer will be that unlike Adobe, Serif have kept their file details locked down and won't allow any third party to have the technical details. It's great to have Serif in the market, but let's not pretend they are anything other than a profit making business who are doing what is best for their bottom line. That includes using a "new" file format for V2, which will push people to upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walt.farrell Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 3 hours ago, BofG said: The answer will be that unlike Adobe, ... Some Adobe apps have partially documented file formats (PS). Others, as far as I know, are completely undocumented (Illustrator). I don't think any are completely documented. So Adobe doesn't make a really good comparison. I've never checked, but I wonder how many companies have documented their formats (vs ones who haven't). Paul Mudditt 1 Quote -- Walt Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases PC: Desktop: Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Laptop: Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU. iPad: iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard Mac: 2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v_kyr Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 24 minutes ago, walt.farrell said: Others, as far as I know, are completely undocumented (Illustrator). Well there's at least a pretty old doc (dated 23 February 1998) about the "Adobe Illustrator File Format Specification (PDF file)", so they once upon a time documented until Ai 7.0. walt.farrell 1 Quote ☛ Affinity Designer 1.10.8 ◆ Affinity Photo 1.10.8 ◆ Affinity Publisher 1.10.8 ◆ OSX El Capitan ☛ Affinity V2.3 apps ◆ MacOS Sonoma 14.2 ◆ iPad OS 17.2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomaso Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 32 minutes ago, walt.farrell said: So Adobe doesn't make a really good comparison. The .XML and .IND file formats seem to be a good comparison – regardless of which of their formats are less documented or more proprietary. Note, these were not developed to enable Serif to import these files but to supply backwards compatibility within upgrades of their own app, respectively to make file sharing less demanding concerning file size. Quote macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BofG Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 1 hour ago, walt.farrell said: Adobe apps have partially documented file formats ..and Serif has none whatsoever. Additionally, Adobe made the PDF format completely open and I believe it is that part of an Illustrator file that Affinity uses to read them. I'd personally be in favour of all such apps using either PDF or SVG for their native formats, give us proper interoperability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walt.farrell Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 21 minutes ago, BofG said: I'd personally be in favour of all such apps using either PDF or SVG for their native formats, give us proper interoperability. Neither of those formats support enough functions to use them as native formats. Pšenda, R C-R and Paul Mudditt 3 Quote -- Walt Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases PC: Desktop: Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Laptop: Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU. iPad: iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard Mac: 2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R C-R Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 Just now, walt.farrell said: Neither of those formats support enough functions to use them as native formats. For example, no way to include history in the file or many of the non-destructive features. Paul Mudditt 1 Quote All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7 Affinity Photo 1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BofG Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 4 minutes ago, walt.farrell said: Neither of those formats support enough functions to use them as native formats. Yes they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BofG Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 17 minutes ago, R C-R said: For example, no way to include history in the file or many of the non-destructive features. PDF can do history, SVG would be harder but not impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pšenda Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 15 minutes ago, walt.farrell said: Neither of those formats support enough functions to use them as native formats. This, by the way, is the main reason why every company makes its own format for its application with specific functions and needs. If it were true that there is one open, well-documented and highly efficient format that enables absolutely everything and forever (if someone would object, for example, to xml, then it is only a way of writing information - their content and interpretation is already completely specific), then why would anyone waste time and money inventing and maintaining their own formátu? walt.farrell 1 Quote Affinity Store (MSI/EXE): Affinity Suite (ADe, APh, APu) 2.4.0.2301 Dell OptiPlex 7060, i5-8500 3.00 GHz, 16 GB, Intel UHD Graphics 630, Dell P2417H 1920 x 1080, Windows 11 Pro, Version 23H2, Build 22631.3155. Dell Latitude E5570, i5-6440HQ 2.60 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics 530, 1920 x 1080, Windows 11 Pro, Version 23H2, Build 22631.3155. Intel NUC5PGYH, Pentium N3700 2.40 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics, EIZO EV2456 1920 x 1200, Windows 10 Pro, Version 21H1, Build 19043.2130. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BofG Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 34 minutes ago, Pšenda said: why would anyone waste time and money inventing and maintaining their own formát Customer lock in. Take a look at the functionality within InkScape (look past it's clunky UI). It does everything imaginable for a vector package. It's file format? SVG. It also happens to be non-profit software and doesn't need to lock in users. Odd no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walt.farrell Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 38 minutes ago, BofG said: PDF can do history, What standardized function in PDF would allow History? If the function and format are not part of the actual standard, then other apps won't be able to interpret it properly, and it doesn't help if PDF were used as the native format. So it's no good if it simply allows a chunk of data with unknown content. Pšenda and R C-R 2 Quote -- Walt Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases PC: Desktop: Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Laptop: Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU. iPad: iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard Mac: 2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BofG Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 11 minutes ago, walt.farrell said: What standardized function in PDF would allow History? There's three, maybe four main players in this market. They could standardise anything should they wish to. Failing that, just have proprietary things like history embedded in custom data (PDF allows this already). I'm not so naïve to think any of this would happen, but I'm also not naïve enough to believe that it's only not happening because it's technically impossible - it's not happening because it doesn't make business sense. Anyway, I only really wanted to provide a bit of balance against the view of "Adobe bad" when the whole thread is about V2 having no backwards compatibility. My point on a common file was just a side thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R C-R Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 19 minutes ago, BofG said: I'm not so naïve to think any of this would happen, but I'm also not naïve enough to believe that it's only not happening because it's technically impossible - it's not happening because it doesn't make business sense. It is in part also about what is most efficient in terms of memory & file storage space, & what can be made highly responsive or incur unacceptable lags that might make some sort of 'universal' standard technically feasible but unacceptable in real world use. Paul Mudditt 1 Quote All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7 Affinity Photo 1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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