Printing black objects from Publisher results in non-black output

[tatanka]

Using version 2.0 on MacOS Ventura (latest version). The issue is consistently reproducible. I occurs in new documents.

A collection of sample documents are attached.

Description of the issue: When creating objects that are black (K=100 or GREY=0 or RGB=0,0,0) in a Publisher document, then printing it, cause these object to output in various shades of grey. This cause the objects to be rasterised.

Exporting a PDF X:1a and then printing that PDF from Preview correctly renders the objects with the colour K=100 as full black, and thus without raster. This is the expected output.

I’m using an HP LaserJet P2015 set to highest quality and in-printer colour management. (This setting works in InDesign FYI). The HP printer is a mono laser.

all_the_logos_4C_X1-a.pdf all_the_logos_4C.afpub logo_RGB=0,0,0.eps logo_RGB=0,0,0.pdf logo_RGB=0,0,0.afdesign logo_GREY=0.pdf logo_GREY=0.eps logo_GREY=0.afdesign logo_K=100.eps logo_K=100.pdf logo_K=100.afdesign

[Hangman]

@tatanka, just a couple of observations...

Your Publisher file, all_the_logos_4C.afpub has two instances of each EPS file in the right hand column, each duplicate sitting on top of the original for some reason. Not in itself an issue just thought it worth mentioning.

On 11/26/2022 at 9:58 AM, tatanka said:

Description of the issue: When creating objects that are black (K=100 or GREY=0 or RGB=0,0,0) in a Publisher document, then printing it, cause these object to output in various shades of grey. This cause the objects to be rasterised.

Two of your placed PDF files, namely logo_GREY=0.pdf and logo_RGB=0,0,0.pdf are PDF 1.7 files which are not compatible with the PDF export version you have selected in your Publisher file, i.e., PDF/X-1a:2003 so it is expected that those two files will be rasterised on export (which they are).

EPS files can't have a colour profile assigned to them so colours will be converted to the document profile on PDF export.

Whilst PDF/X-1a supports CMYK and spot colours it doesn’t allow colour management so any RGB graphics will be converted to Device CMYK with an associated Output Condition Indentifier, which for your file is as expected, i.e., Coated FOGRA27 (ISO 12647-2:2004).

Another consideration is that making an ICC profile conversion from Gray 0 or RGB 0, 0, 0 does not result CMYK 0, 0, 0, 100 (aka black) and vice versa.

Placing the various source files into your Publisher document converts the black values between your source and destination colour profiles resulting in two variations of black for your LOGO graphic, CMYK 0, 0, 0, 100 in the first row and CMYK 84, 84, 78, 99 in rows two and three.

If anything, I would have expected to see the opposite with your prints and for the top row of your LOGO graphics to have printed as a dark grey since the Black isn't a Rich Black, and for the converted black in the second and third rows to print as a Rich Black.

I appreciate it's likely stating the obvious, but are your print settings identical when printing directly from Publisher vs from Preview, e.g.,

• Is EconoMode on or off?
• Is your printer set to use PCL 5e, PCL 6 or Postscript?
• What resolution are you using, 600, Fast Res 1200 or ProRes 1200?
• Do you have REt activated?
• What is the print density set to?

I can't think of any obvious reasons why you would be seeing differing results between printing from either Publisher or Preview... I don't have a toner based laser printer to test your files with only an inkjet printer which prints identically from both Publisher and Preview.

[tatanka]

@Hangman Thank you for looking at this issue.

The logos placed twice on top of each other is a Publisher bug. I just tried to delete all the placed art, and then placing them again. Same outcome: some are seemingly placed twice, and the Resources window is all borked (see screenshot). However the files are not placed twice in the Publisher document window as far as I the user can see. This bug happens consistently whenever I place an EPS. Borks the whole document, sometimes crashes the app, often placed EPS are missing when the Publisher document is re-opened.

I tried to repair the Publisher document, but it is unrepairable. If I try to export the document as a PDF, Publisher will be unable to generate a preview and stay seemingly stuck in a loop. Selecting TIFF as the output renders a broken document, but what it shows is only visible in that preview, not visible in the actual document (see screenshot).

Speaking of which, why can’t I move the ‘Place’ file selection window? Very annoying! Further, as I was checking the preferences I noticed that I could horizontally scroll the left-side categories (see screenshot).

Now to the matter at hand. I changed the ICC profile to the FOGRA51 profile (attached) for all the apps, all the CMYK documents and my printer (see screenshots). Using those settings I can successfully print true black when printing an exported PDF from Preview, or when pasting the LOGO directly in a Publisher document. However every other combination I have tried fails in outputting black at 100%.

So I created a fresh document, and placed the files again – this time without EPS files to bork the document. I copied the text boxes from the existing document, but again there was an issue in that the text in the text boxes were K=100%, but after pasting them in the new document they were all converted to some dirty CMYK (see screenshot).

Having set that to K=100% again I tried to generate a PDF X4, but again the preview was borked (see screenshot). Further, now the generated PDF would not print in true black by printing via PDF from Preview. Then I tried to print from an X:1-a PDF, but got same result. Then set the printer options colour management to ‘in printer’ (see screenshot) and at least got the text to print true black.

I’m kind of stuck here. There are so many bugs it’s hard to tell what is broken specifically.

I’ve attached the new Publisher document and the Designer files. In the Publisher document your can see in the Resource Manager window that now too the placed PDFs are double-placed by Publisher.

To get further in this matter please tell me (or point me to a guide) explaining how to successfully achieve true black output in placed files. Thank you.

PSOcoated_v3.icc New Publisher document and placed files.zip

[tatanka]

One more question. Here it is claimed that Publisher does not support outputting CMYK. 

I’ve also seen this mentioned other places. Is this still the modus operandi? 

[walt.farrell]

19 minutes ago, tatanka said:

Is this still the modus operandi? 

I believe it is true for Windows; I'm not sure about macOS.

[Hangman]

5 minutes ago, tatanka said:

The logos placed twice on top of each other is a Publisher bug. I just tried to delete all the placed art, and then placing them again. Same outcome: some are seemingly placed twice, and the Resources window is all borked (see screenshot).

That is very odd, this isn't something I've seen before and I'm not seeing that when I place your EPS file into a new Publisher document, they only appear once in both the layers panel and Resource Manager... Is this something that's been reported elsewhere?

 

16 minutes ago, tatanka said:

However the files are not placed twice in the Publisher document window as far as I the user can see.

This is what I see when I open the Publisher file you uploaded... Simply selecting the top three duplicated layers and deleting them worked fine for me...

 

I'm also not seeing any borkish behaviour in Resource Manager with your file either, it's really odd that you are, I'm really unsure what is going on there...

 

26 minutes ago, tatanka said:

often placed EPS are missing when the Publisher document is re-opened.

This issue I have seen reported a few times... I'm running Monterey and I've not experienced any of the EPS issues in V2.0 even after opening your file numerous times so the issues you're experiencing with EPS files all appear to be Ventura specific.

 

38 minutes ago, tatanka said:

I tried to repair the Publisher document, but it is unrepairable. If I try to export the document as a PDF, Publisher will be unable to generate a preview and stay seemingly stuck in a loop. Selecting TIFF as the output renders a broken document, but what it shows is only visible in that preview, not visible in the actual document (see screenshot).

With your original document, TIFF Previews fine but the only flavour of PDF to display correctly is PDF (flatten)... I believe the PDF Export Preview issues are a known bug...

 

49 minutes ago, tatanka said:

Speaking of which, why can’t I move the ‘Place’ file selection window? Very annoying! Further, as I was checking the preferences I noticed that I could horizontally scroll the left-side categories (see screenshot).

As far as I'm aware it should be possible to move modal windows in macOS so I'm unsure why we can't move the place window?

 

54 minutes ago, tatanka said:

as I was checking the preferences I noticed that I could horizontally scroll the left-side categories (see screenshot).

I can move them a very small amount, certainly not to the extent shown in your screengrab, but they bounce back again after releasing the mouse...

 

2 hours ago, tatanka said:

So I created a fresh document, and placed the files again – this time without EPS files to bork the document.

The new Publisher file you uploaded is actually using the ISO Coated v2 (ECI) profile rather than FOGRA51 which I realise you didn't intend to do. Also, the logo_GREY=0.afdesign file is also missing from your ZIP file just so you know so I simply used the one you originally uploaded.

 

2 hours ago, tatanka said:

I copied the text boxes from the existing document, but again there was an issue in that the text in the text boxes were K=100%, but after pasting them in the new document they were all converted to some dirty CMYK

This is to be expected because you are converting the text boxes from FOGRA27 to, in this case ISO Coated v2 (ECI) (even though you meant it to be be to FOGRA51 (PSOcoated_v3). Regardless CYMK 0, 0, 0, 100 (FOGRA27) converts to CMYK 72, 65, 45, 84 (FOGRA51), which is a very drak grey.

 

2 hours ago, tatanka said:

Having set that to K=100% again I tried to generate a PDF X4, but again the preview was borked (see screenshot). Further, now the generated PDF would not print in true black by printing via PDF from Preview. Then I tried to print from an X:1-a PDF, but got same result. Then set the printer options colour management to ‘in printer’ (see screenshot) and at least got the text to print true black.

The PDF Export preview issue is a known bug so you can effectively ignore that until it's fixed as it doesn't impact the exported PDF file itself...

Because your Designer file logo_K=100 uses the correct, intended PSOcoated_v3 colour profile, when placed into your Publisher document which unintentionally uses a different profile, ISO Coated v2 (ECI), it's converting the black value from CMYK 0, 0, 0, 100 to CMYK 79, 70, 71, 86 so with your Designer files you have three different source colour profiles all being converted into ISO Coated v2 (ECI).

Affinity Design Conversions

• logo_K=100.afdesign - PSOcoated_v3 to ISO Coated v2 (ECI)
• logo_GREY=0.afdesign - Greyscale D50 to ISO Coated v2 (ECI)
• logo_RGB=0,0,0.afdesign - Display P3 to ISO Coated v2 (ECI)

This also impacts the text boxes you copied and pasted because of the inadvertant ISO Coated v2 (ECI) profile selection in the Publisher document.

Both logo_Grey=0.pdf and logo_RGB=0,0,0.pdf use the U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2 profile, only logo_K=100 uses PSOcoated_v3 so again, you have colour profile conversions taking place for all three PDF files because you've inadvernetly selected ISO Coated v2 (ECI) as your Publisher profile.

PDF Conversions

• logo_K=100.pdf - PSOcoated_v3 to ISO Coated v2 (ECI)
• logo_GREY=0.pdf - U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2 to ISO Coated v2 (ECI)
• logo_RGB=0,0,0.pdf - U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2 to ISO Coated v2 (ECI)

 

3 hours ago, tatanka said:

Having set that to K=100% again I tried to generate a PDF X4, but again the preview was borked (see screenshot). Further, now the generated PDF would not print in true black by printing via PDF from Preview. Then I tried to print from an X:1-a PDF, but got same result. Then set the printer options colour management to ‘in printer’ (see screenshot) and at least got the text to print true black.

Because of the slight hiccup with the Publisher profile, this means that none of the LOGO graphics in your PDF/X-1a file use K100 because all have been converted between different colour profiles. The text is an exception because you converted this directly in your Publisher document.

PDF/X-4 follows on from PDF/X-3 with regards to colour management and while PDF/X-4 allows RGB, Lab and ICC based color spaces in addition to the CMYK, Greyscale and Spot colours of PDF/X-3 it requires that device color spaces may be used only if the same color space is used for the ICC profile in the Output Intent, so DeviceRGB requires the Output Intent to use an RGB ICC profile.

In the case of your logo_RGB=0,0,0.pdf, this condition isn't met because its Output Condition Identifier is shown as U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2.

You also can't embed colour profiles in the flavour of PDF/X-4 exported by the Affinity suite, you can only provide a named output intent in the form of an Output Condition Identifier.

Starting with a Publisher document that uses FOGRA51 (PSOcoated_v3) as I realise was your initial intent and using a PDF export format that allows embeded profiles, PDF 5 upwards, then exporting your document with embedded profiles will honour K=100, Grey=0 and RGB=0, 0, 0 in your placed PDF files. The Greyscale and RGB Designer files placed in the Publisher document will however still be converted from their respective colour profiles to FOGRA51.

Note: The greyscale colour model defines colour by using only one component, lightness, which is measured in values ranging from 0 to 255. Each greyscale colour has equal values of the red, green and blue components of the RGB color model which results in both the Grey 0 and RGB 0, 0, 0 black values being converted to CMYK 83, 67 ,51, 95.

[tatanka]

56 minutes ago, Hangman said:

The new Publisher file you uploaded is actually using the ISO Coated v2 (ECI) profile rather than FOGRA51 which I realise you didn't intend to do. Also, the logo_GREY=0.afdesign file is also missing from your ZIP file just so you know so I simply used the one you originally uploaded.

Right you are! In regards to the missing file: I did a collect of the document, so Publisher didn’t collect that file even though it was placed in the document.

1 hour ago, Hangman said:

Starting with a Publisher document that uses FOGRA51 (PSOcoated_v3) as I realise was your initial intent and using a PDF export format that allows embeded profiles, PDF 5 upwards, then exporting your document with embedded profiles will honour K=100, Grey=0 and RGB=0, 0, 0 in your placed PDF files. The Greyscale and RGB Designer files placed in the Publisher document will however still be converted from their respective colour profiles to FOGRA51.

You should probably make a support document or guide on how to do this as you just explained. I far as I could see no such documentation was to be found.

1 hour ago, Hangman said:

In the case of your logo_RGB=0,0,0.pdf, this condition isn't met because its Output Condition Identifier is shown as U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2.

Those ICC profiles are selected (and applied) when I as a user do not select any colour-space nor any profile in the PDF export from Designer.

1 hour ago, Hangman said:

Starting with a Publisher document that uses FOGRA51 (PSOcoated_v3) as I realise was your initial intent and using a PDF export format that allows embeded profiles, PDF 5 upwards, then exporting your document with embedded profiles will honour K=100, Grey=0 and RGB=0, 0, 0 in your placed PDF files. The Greyscale and RGB Designer files placed in the Publisher document will however still be converted from their respective colour profiles to FOGRA51.

I tried making a new document per your instructions, but I just can’t get anything placed in Publisher to print as black. The only thing that works is copying the logo from Designer and pasting it into Publisher.

If you have a Publisher doc with placed PDF that works please attach it so i can try it here.

[Hangman]

15 hours ago, tatanka said:

I tried making a new document per your instructions, but I just can’t get anything placed in Publisher to print as black. The only thing that works is copying the logo from Designer and pasting it into Publisher.

If you have a Publisher doc with placed PDF that works please attach it so i can try it here.

See if this works for you...

Publisher document attached with associated Designer, PDF and EPS files...

• Publisher Document Profile FOGRA51
• CMYK Document Profile FOGRA51 (Black: CMYK 0, 0, 0, 100 | White: CMYK 0, 0, 0, 0)
• Greyscale Document Profile Greyscale D50 (Black: Grey 0 | White: Grey 100)
• RGB Document Profile sRGB (Black: RGB 0, 0, 0 | White: RGB 255, 255, 255)

PDF Export using PDF 1.7 (press ready) preset.

All graphics in the PDF honour their respective Black and White values and so should print as such. Bear in mind that CMYK 0, 0, 0, 100 can appear dark grey depending on the substrate used as it's not a Rich Black, though I don't think that is what you're looking to achieve here.

 

Questions

1. Over and above wanting graphics placed in Publisher to print as black, what is it you are looking to achieve exactly?
2. Is there a specific requirement to use either PDF/X-1a or PDF/X-4?
3. Is there a particular reason for mixing different colour profiles in the same document, CMYK, RGB and Greyscale?

 

all_the_logos_4C_FOGRA51.zip

[tatanka]

I can’t open your Publisher file.

[tatanka]

I printed your all_the_logos_4C_FOGRA51_1.7.pdf and on the "PDF K=100" printed in full black. So far so good, but I would expect that the placed "Designer K=100" would also print in full black.

Please send me a version of the Publisher document created in version 2.0.0 so I can open it and try to print it. When I initially started this issue, I could successfully print via a PDF, but not directly from Publisher.

[Hangman]

It's created in the current version of Publisher 2.0.0.1640. Is that the version you're using?

I've attached just the Publisher file here...

all_the_logos_4C_FOGRA51.afpub

[Hangman]

1 minute ago, tatanka said:

I would expect that the placed "Designer K=100" would also print in full black.

What is it actually printing?

[tatanka]

Mine just says 2.0.0 (1640). Checked for updates, none available.

[tatanka]

3 minutes ago, Hangman said:

What is it actually printing?

This – looks like a ~90% black.

[tatanka]

5 minutes ago, Hangman said:

It's created in the current version of Publisher 2.0.0.1640. Is that the version you're using?

I've attached just the Publisher file here...

all_the_logos_4C_FOGRA51.afpub

Same issue as before. File contains features from newer version.

[Hangman]

Just now, tatanka said:

Same issue as before. File contains features from newer version.

That makes no sense since there are currently no newer versions, sounds like a bug!

[Hangman]

2 minutes ago, tatanka said:

This – looks like a ~90% black.

What values are shown when you physically select the black rectangle for the placed Designer Doc, this is what you should see...

[tatanka]

All right. I’ll try to make the Publisher document myself from your earlier instructions. I’ll report back here.

[tatanka]

Just now, Hangman said:

What values are shown when you physically select the black rectangle for the placed Designer Doc, this is what you should see...

This is what I can’t do. I can’t open your Publisher document. I printed from your all_the_logos_4C_FOGRA51_1.7.pdf

[Hangman]

Sorry, that's what I mean, what values are shown when you physically select the black rectangle for the placed Designer Doc in the PDF file...

[Hangman]

2 minutes ago, tatanka said:

All right. I’ll try to make the Publisher document myself from your earlier instructions. I’ll report back here.

When you do, try using the LOGO files I included in the ZIP file rather than your original files... Also ensure you use PSO Coated v3 as your Publisher Document CMYK Profile.

[tatanka]

Okay, so first using my documents. I have set the Publisher document, the Designer 4C document, and the exported PDF (exported using PDF 1.7 (press ready)) preset as you described, to FOGRA51 (aka. PSO Coated v3). Lets disregard the greyscale and RGB for now.

I then exported the Publisher document as a PDF 1.7 (press ready) with CMYK and PSO Coated v3.

Both the Publisher document and the PDF were printed with identical printer settings, which were ColorSync with profile 'PSO Coated v3'.

These are the results:

Only the PDF with the placed logo PDF set to passthrough printed in full black.

 

[Hangman]

Two Questions

1. Do you get the same results when letting your printer use it's own colour management rather than using ColorSync?
2. If you open the PDF 1.7 (press ready) file you've just created and select the black rectangle for each of the three logos, what CMYK values do you see?

[tatanka]

Just tried making the document using your documents, which went fine, but Publisher hung when I pressed Cmd+P

Sample of Affinity Publisher 2.txt

[Hangman]

7 minutes ago, tatanka said:

Just tried making the document using your documents, which went fine, but Publisher hung when I pressed Cmd+P

That sounds system related, have you tried it again? There's nothing special about any of the files...