Removal of "Save/Save As" items from the open document menu

[jeffreydevey]

Can the reasoning behind this change be clarified by the Affinity team?

I posted this question on the announcement thread as well, but I'm posting it again here because I'm not sure which is the most appropriate place. Thanks!

[StudioJason]

I’d like to know why.

Though I understand why they did…and don’t understand why they did all the same.
Being able to Save/Save As while in and working on Document is just simple Workflow convenience….not having to Exit the document to do so, just to go back in.

[DM1]

4 hours ago, StudioJason said:

not having to Exit the document to do so, just to go back in.

While I want the Save/Save a copy back in Doc Menu, it should be understood that edits are being saved while you work based on your autosave setting (displayed in seconds, default 300). The issue is that the autosave only updates the sandbox copy and you must remember to tap Save from hamburger menu to actually update the external file.

[walt.farrell]

7 minutes ago, DM1 said:

The issue is that the autosave only updates the sandbox copy and you must remember to tap Save from hamburger menu to actually update the external file.

Autosave must not be anllowed to update the external file. That is a recipe for disaster, as any saving might corrupt the file and you won't know until you try to Open it later.

Saves should be to files, possibly with a version number, and even then you don't really know whether you're safe unless you Open the Saved file. So you need something like this:

1. Save a Copy, under a new name.
2. Open that file, to make sure the save was good.
3. Then continue working.

If, as on the desktop, you don't have Save a Copy, then it becomes something like:

1. Save As under a new name, say X
2. Save As, under another new name, say Y.
3. Open X to make sure it saved correctly. 
4. Close Y and perhaps delete it.

[DM1]

5 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

Autosave must not be anllowed to update the external file

Sorry Walt, I disagree. Saving should and must be reliable.
I don’t want (or need) copious copies of my files, I just want my edits safely stored (that rules out sandbox as too many sandbox files end up corrupted). 
I don’t want to, nor should have to, immediately reopen every file I save to make sure it’s not corrupted. I don’t do that with any other iPad app and have never experienced a file corrupted by saving (only corrupt files I’ve had are in Affinity sandbox files).

 

[jeffreydevey]

13 hours ago, StudioJason said:

I’d like to know why.

Though I understand why they did…and don’t understand why they did all the same.
Being able to Save/Save As while in and working on Document is just simple Workflow convenience….not having to Exit the document to do so, just to go back in.

Yes, I agree. Saving should be convenient. I've pointed out some additional drawbacks I've encountered with the current method on another thread. For example, I was working in Pixel Persona and had to re-enter it after the document reopened in Design Persona. Then I had to reopen the pixel brush category I was using before exiting the document to save. Then I had to reset the color panel slider mode to my preference, etc.

Saving used to take two clicks and a couple of seconds, but now sometimes requires upwards of 10 clicks and the whole process takes close to a minute by the time I reset everything the way it was before exiting the document. If I save my work 5 times per hour I'll end up spending 40 mins. of every work day just saving my work and resetting panels. The current saving system for the iPad is a frustrating mess from my perspective. I hope they get it sorted.

[iuli]

…

 

[walt.farrell]

12 hours ago, DM1 said:

Saving should and must be reliable

Yes, but it's not. Just look at all the reports of people not being able to open files they've saved. Until it is reliable, it is not safe to let Autosave touch the original. 

You can always clean up the saved versions you don't need. But good luck recovering a corrupted file.

[DM1]

5 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

Yes, but it's not. Just look at all the reports of people not being able to open files they've saved. Until it is reliable, it is not safe to let Autosave touch the original. 

Corrupted sandbox files, not saved files. I’m not sure what causes sandbox files to become corrupted. Shutting the app down while an autosave is still in progress? Possible? I'm not convinced, but if so, I agree that issue would need to be prevented.

[walt.farrell]

39 minutes ago, DM1 said:

Corrupted sandbox files, not saved files. I’m not sure what causes sandbox files to become corrupted. Shutting the app down while an autosave is still in progress? Possible? I'm not convinced, but if so, I agree that issue would need to be prevented.

The issues I'm referring to are with the files on disk, not in the Sandbox. Many reports of Saving a file, and later finding you can't Open the Saved file again.

At this point, in my opinion, it would not be safe to let Autosave touch the actual files, only the Sandbox (and the .autosave files on the desktop).

[Paul Mudditt]

24 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

The issues I'm referring to are with the files on disk, not in the Sandbox. Many reports of Saving a file, and later finding you can't Open the Saved file again.

 

That was tracked down the the stupid rename function that never worked. . On V1 iPad, and also V2.0.0,  if you name and saved a file, then subsequently rename it and save again, the new filename appears in the sandbox but the file itself never exists on disk. Only the original file exists. Try it. 

Reason: Once a file is saved it is forever linked to the sandbox file, and you can’t change the name of an open file. 

[walt.farrell]

15 minutes ago, Paul Mudditt said:

That was tracked down

No, it's never been tracked down. It's an issue on Desktop, too. Files that are saved are just found to be corrupt when you later try to use them.

(Unless all of them that I've noticed have been related to saving to external or network drives. I think Serif has worked on improving that for V2.)

[DM1]

On 11/22/2022 at 10:24 AM, Paul Mudditt said:

Reason: Once a file is saved it is forever linked to the sandbox file, and you can’t change the name of an open file. 

Have you noticed that Save a copy  now replaces the original file in Live doc with the renamed copy. The working copy is closed in the process. I wonder if the changes are also saved to the now closed original file?

Edit: no they are not saved to old active file. Need to Save first as the active file is closed without saving.

[Paul Mudditt]

16 minutes ago, DM1 said:

Have you noticed that Save a copy  now replaces the original file in Live doc with the renamed copy. I wonder if the changes are also saved to the now closed original file?

No and I would not expect it to.

If you want to save you press save and it saves.

If you decide that you have done changes that actually you like and decide it would be better given a new name to protect your previous version you use save as and continue with the knowledge that your previous saved version is safe.

In this way incremental improvements work very well version1 - version2 - version3 - final version and all versions you intentionally saved are still there in case you wanted to return to them, think of save as being a snapshot in time.

If you want to have all versions in sandbox then simply use duplicate and save each time not save as.

[DM1]

2 hours ago, Paul Mudditt said:

No and I would not expect it to.

That’s true. So, to be clear …..

Save creates/updates external file and updates an existing sandbox file. First save can name and navigate to a folder. Future saves update external file.
Save a Copy closes existing sandbox file without saving edits to external file, and creates a new sandbox file and a new external copy containing edits made prior to closing original file. Can name and navigate to a folder every time. 
Duplicate creates a copy of the sandbox file but no external file. No opportunity to name unless Saving externally. Duplicates are auto named with word ‘Copy’ addended to original name.

So a manual save is still required to ensure the external file remains up to date. I’d like this reinstated in Document menu for sure.🙂

For simplicity just add Duplicate to hamburger menu and drop the swipe left option completely?

[Paul Mudditt]

Absolutely spot on ! EDIT: See Walts note below Save and Save As same as desktop not Save a copy

This should align it with any other software on the desktop like Microsoft Word, Excel, Pages, Numbers ......

I already got a note from Patrick that the Default Save folder option under preferences will be gone in the next release and hopefully we can put all those lost files behind us.

[walt.farrell]

9 hours ago, DM1 said:

Save a Copy

There is no Save a Copy.

Your choices from the burger menu in 2.0.2 are Save, and Save As, but Save As does what you describe for Save a Copy.

[Paul Mudditt]

44 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

There is no Save a Copy.

Your choices from the burger menu in 2.0.2 are Save, and Save As, but Save As does what you describe for Save a Copy.

Ah yes Walt. yes you are right Save and Save As same as the desktop , not Save a Copy anymore

[Paul Mudditt]

Command-S performs Save when you have a document open if you have a keyboard attached as well.

[walt.farrell]

1 hour ago, Paul Mudditt said:

Command-S performs Save when you have a document open if you have a keyboard attached as well.

But, as it was removed intentionally due to causing errors, using the shortcuts probably isn't safe.