Jump to content
You must now use your email address to sign in [click for more info] ×

Bad design decisions in new refined layers panel (some no-no's)


François R

Recommended Posts

Some feedback now I've worked a bit in v2 in complex documents. Dark theme.

Right side of the layers panel I have no problems with - I would prefer an eye symbol which is a de facto standard in graphics programs with layers. But otherwise, I'm quite happy with the very simple design. On the right side!

The left side of the layers panel is almost a disaster. It's a mosaic of black squares, and together it all forms a chaos of visual details. The nice clean design from v1 is gone, and the layers panel is horrible and exhausting to work with.

The first thing I do is turn off the layer type symbol. Next, I turn on group thumbnails. And from there, the panel and my focus are disturbed by ugly frames. Also, the text contrast setting from preferences does not affect the layer name so the layer name doesn't stand out at all.

Oh, and the dark lines! What does have contrast is the vertical and horizontal border/frame lines in the layers panel that I really dislike and would like to turn OFF. I really do understand what-is-what without them. They are just distracting noise to me.

However, thanks for the whole frame with fold in/out symbol now being clickable - not just the symbol in there.

So, all in all you did it perfectly right in v1. 

But this mosaic mess... awful to work with:

image.png.561d43d1d2994a4a2411f85ed478c67f.png

 1) You have completely wrecked the layers panel, Serif.

2) I recommend Reddit groups instead of this forum. Not the same few bot-like users replying to everything, a wider representation of users, fewer fanboys, more qualified users. In short, better!

3) I was here to report bugs and submit improvement requests for professional work professionally in a large setup and to bring a lot of knowledge from the world, i.e. professional product development, web- and software development, usability, user experience design and accessibility. I actually know what I am talking about!

BUT! We are phasing out Designer and Affinity in 2022 Q1 - and replacing it with feature complete and algorithmically competent alternatives.
Publisher is unsuitable for serious use, and was never adopted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the things I appreciate the most is that I can quickly identify type of a layer. It was driving me nuts when I tried to copy selected part of the picture to another layer but it was copying whole layer because I forgot to rasterize. Now I see what I am working with instantly, so for me its a great change.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, nezumi said:

One of the things I appreciate the most is that I can quickly identify type of a layer. It was driving me nuts when I tried to copy selected part of the picture to another layer but it was copying whole layer because I forgot to rasterize. Now I see what I am working with instantly, so for me its a great change.

Yes, and in that case it is useful. But you can turn it off or on.

However, I always have to live with the fact that even when I turn it off, I don't get rid of the unimaginable visual mess that occurs when working with groups in particular. 

 

image.png.6a0378f61e75ef0faa47e42e9a621b21.png

Just look at it:

image.png.cac0f07e81700d7ba41e7e9e163fd075.png

image.png.aaaa3c1eb9cb775991114157b6050721.png

THAT mess should be an opt-in.

Let's then compare it with the beautiful simplicity of v1.10 - same test file - it is the ABSCENCE of these lines and boxes that makes me able to navigate instantly in the old layers panel:

image.png.ca4ca7a127594a11dc8aacaedf741405.png

 

 1) You have completely wrecked the layers panel, Serif.

2) I recommend Reddit groups instead of this forum. Not the same few bot-like users replying to everything, a wider representation of users, fewer fanboys, more qualified users. In short, better!

3) I was here to report bugs and submit improvement requests for professional work professionally in a large setup and to bring a lot of knowledge from the world, i.e. professional product development, web- and software development, usability, user experience design and accessibility. I actually know what I am talking about!

BUT! We are phasing out Designer and Affinity in 2022 Q1 - and replacing it with feature complete and algorithmically competent alternatives.
Publisher is unsuitable for serious use, and was never adopted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, François R said:

it is the ABSCENCE of these lines and boxes that makes me able to navigate instantly in the old layers panel

Yet again a proof that you simply can't please everybody. :D 
I, for one, like the "mosaic" of lines and boxes. 

MacBookAir 15": MacOS Ventura > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // MacBookPro 15" mid-2012: MacOS El Capitan > Affinity v1 / MacOS Catalina > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // iPad 8th: iPadOS 16 > Affinity v2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't mind the lines so much if they weren't all the same colour/shade as it makes it really difficult to figure out what is grouped with what. They also feel a bit thick for their purpose, as they’re just visual guides. This feels like a convention that was poorly copied from code editors where data, classes, functions, etc are highlighted to indicate grouping and scope. Often these 'groups' are highlighted when selected and/or colour coded to help differentiate the nesting/structure. Having a bunch of grey lines jammed together just adds noise IMHO. 

image.png.b20e6edb70c9751e64fbabfebe343af9.pngimage.jpeg.fe52ac7ab70a08b47272c9837faeff31.jpeg

Edited by Guest
Added images for illustration purposes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Bryan Rieger said:

I wouldn't mind the lines so much if they weren't all the same colour/shade as it makes it really difficult to figure out what is grouped with what. They also feel a bit thick for their purpose, as they’re just visual guides. This feels like a convention that was poorly copied from code editors where data, classes, functions, etc are highlighted to indicate grouping and scope. Often these 'groups' are highlighted when selected and/or colour coded to help differentiate the nesting/structure. Having a bunch of grey lines jammed together just adds noise IMHO. 

image.png.b20e6edb70c9751e64fbabfebe343af9.png

Hi @Bryan Rieger

Thank you for an illustrated, serious post. I actually logged in by coincidence (I don't live in here) to suggest something similar.

But first and foremost: Such visual hints/guides need not be 24/7 shining neonlight guides (or dark boxes), always always visible. That's the whole problem with those clunky boxes that fill up the entire LEFT side of the layers panel. It's a feature that needs to be turned on, for those who want visual assistance. It's madness that it's visible all the time to everyone. It clutters everything and for me it's counter productive all the time. So now let's have it as something you can turn on or off like with the layer type icon.

Now to you, Bryan: Your example is identical to my suggestion. Funnily enough I would think that Serif's programmers develop Affinity in an environment where they see their code outlined as shown below: 

image.png.36555a194a63f70a25b445233eba2ffe.png

Discreet and hinted. It's simply all you need to see the structure, and it doesn't dominate in any way.

So, Serif Software, you might consider replacing the mosaic of boxes with something as discrete as this (it's an illustration, I'm not dreaming of 1:1 implementation), and at least that the current mosaic that visually draws the group structure with boxes can be turned off. As the type of layer icon. 

 1) You have completely wrecked the layers panel, Serif.

2) I recommend Reddit groups instead of this forum. Not the same few bot-like users replying to everything, a wider representation of users, fewer fanboys, more qualified users. In short, better!

3) I was here to report bugs and submit improvement requests for professional work professionally in a large setup and to bring a lot of knowledge from the world, i.e. professional product development, web- and software development, usability, user experience design and accessibility. I actually know what I am talking about!

BUT! We are phasing out Designer and Affinity in 2022 Q1 - and replacing it with feature complete and algorithmically competent alternatives.
Publisher is unsuitable for serious use, and was never adopted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is what made V2 difficult to work with for me. I understand what those lines are, but boy are they disruptive in my workflow. I get lost whenever I'm looking at those grey lines.. Also the dot is a "NO" for me, would prefer checkmark, and in front of the dot there is also a hidden(?) lock icon, which I discovered today.

And the selection bug which makes it harder to select objects behind text or other objects..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The "lines" (actually it's fills separated by faint 1px lines) are contextual: They also mark/highlight the hierarchy of the selected layer. I like them. 
They look much better with the Light UI though.
(Disclosure: I don't like any dark UI in general. It hurts my eyes.)

MacBookAir 15": MacOS Ventura > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // MacBookPro 15" mid-2012: MacOS El Capitan > Affinity v1 / MacOS Catalina > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // iPad 8th: iPadOS 16 > Affinity v2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What bout the blue accent in the stroke menu? Until now it was simple and elegant, you saw where the stroke starts (mid, outer, inner). Now with monochromatic icons, it's kind of harder to see what those are. I would understand if the tools were also mono, but they aren't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Staff

Hi @François R, @Bryan Rieger is on a break, @norbinw, everyone,
Thanks for your feedback. These "lines" are not just visual guides, they are also active interface elements that allow you to collapse the level(s) without having to go up to click the expand/collapse arrow in the respective group layer. Consider the case below where i still left the group visible to help with visualization (if the group contains several objects it may not be visible in the Layers panel at all): you can quickly collapse the level/group by clicking the first bar on the left side of the (selected) thumbnail - there's no need to go up to the group layer itself (or scroll up if the group isn't visible) to click the expand/collapse arrow. Hope this makes its purpose clear. I do understand it makes the panel look a bit more busy.

image.png

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, MEB said:

you can quickly collapse the level/group by clicking the first bar on the left side of the (selected) thumbnail - there's no need to go up to the group layer itself (or scroll up if the group isn't visible) to click the expand/collapse arrow.

Nice! I didn't notice it yet.

MacBookAir 15": MacOS Ventura > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // MacBookPro 15" mid-2012: MacOS El Capitan > Affinity v1 / MacOS Catalina > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // iPad 8th: iPadOS 16 > Affinity v2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks @MEB, if the lines are interface elements then it would be helpful to be able to see which line impacts which grouping. As it stands I find it's pure trial and error, especially if there are a lot of layers. Even something as simple as highlighting the line and parent (if visible) with a different shade/tint/hue (ideally based on whatever colour tag, if any, the parent layer has applied) on hover/click/tap would assist the user in understanding which group that line represents.

I actually quite the idea, I'm just not sold on it's implementation yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, MEB said:

Hi @François R, @Bryan Rieger is on a break, @norbinw, everyone,
Thanks for your feedback. These "lines" are not just visual guides, they are also active interface elements that allow you to collapse the level(s) without having to go up to click the expand/collapse arrow in the respective group layer. Consider the case below where i still left the group visible to help with visualization (if the group contains several objects it may not be visible in the Layers panel at all): you can quickly collapse the level/group by clicking the first bar on the left side of the (selected) thumbnail - there's no need to go up to the group layer itself (or scroll up if the group isn't visible) to click the expand/collapse arrow. Hope this makes its purpose clear. I do understand it makes the panel look a bit more busy.

Thanks @MEB

That does make some sense; I just don't need it and suggest you make it optional. I need a clear interface much more. My layer hierarchy is often rather deep so I'll be looking at a confusing busy interface mess all the time. I can just decode and handle the interface faster without. I simply navigate up and down in my layers panel lightning fast with my scroll wheel so I never had issues locating, opening or closing groups. The way I use the panel with my mouse, the functionality is superfluous.

I need a search option more. 🙂 Actually finding something deep down the layers panel (I name every layer and group) is still impossible without without clicking your way to it. I simply don't understand why you have drowned the interface with elements to solve this small problem, when the big one of actually finding something easily without lots of clicks is not solved.

In any case, the graphical interface is too cluttered and contrasty. Indeed, I can also imagine that it greatly reduces accessibility for seniors and people with visual impairments. I hope you can come up with a less obtrusive solution.

Best regards

 1) You have completely wrecked the layers panel, Serif.

2) I recommend Reddit groups instead of this forum. Not the same few bot-like users replying to everything, a wider representation of users, fewer fanboys, more qualified users. In short, better!

3) I was here to report bugs and submit improvement requests for professional work professionally in a large setup and to bring a lot of knowledge from the world, i.e. professional product development, web- and software development, usability, user experience design and accessibility. I actually know what I am talking about!

BUT! We are phasing out Designer and Affinity in 2022 Q1 - and replacing it with feature complete and algorithmically competent alternatives.
Publisher is unsuitable for serious use, and was never adopted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@MEBlook at this for instance:

image.png.4a30bd45faa24d4fb96394186a4b36a2.png

 1) You have completely wrecked the layers panel, Serif.

2) I recommend Reddit groups instead of this forum. Not the same few bot-like users replying to everything, a wider representation of users, fewer fanboys, more qualified users. In short, better!

3) I was here to report bugs and submit improvement requests for professional work professionally in a large setup and to bring a lot of knowledge from the world, i.e. professional product development, web- and software development, usability, user experience design and accessibility. I actually know what I am talking about!

BUT! We are phasing out Designer and Affinity in 2022 Q1 - and replacing it with feature complete and algorithmically competent alternatives.
Publisher is unsuitable for serious use, and was never adopted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, mink said:

It's worth mentioning, naming (!) your layers/groups is the pro way to go.

Indeed. The layers you see in the example are groups of leafes on trees or trees and they are duplicated many, many times. Hundreds. I don't waste time naming these as the thumbnails are enough for identification in this particular document. The name would be the same in most instances. Unless it makes sense to you to name every tree in a forest.

So. You haven't found a hole in my argument. I found an example where the user interface was unusually messy to scroll through. I would barely be able to see the names of layers in that mess.

Incidentally, it's worth mentioning that the text contrast on subgroups cannot be adjusted. It does not follow the setting from preferences.

So, let us stay focused on the MESS.

 1) You have completely wrecked the layers panel, Serif.

2) I recommend Reddit groups instead of this forum. Not the same few bot-like users replying to everything, a wider representation of users, fewer fanboys, more qualified users. In short, better!

3) I was here to report bugs and submit improvement requests for professional work professionally in a large setup and to bring a lot of knowledge from the world, i.e. professional product development, web- and software development, usability, user experience design and accessibility. I actually know what I am talking about!

BUT! We are phasing out Designer and Affinity in 2022 Q1 - and replacing it with feature complete and algorithmically competent alternatives.
Publisher is unsuitable for serious use, and was never adopted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@mink

You're getting way, way too much out of the fact that I showed a small sample of a document without named groups in that section. These are ridiculous claims when I actually name and structure in a properly disciplined way. I just don't name all 10,000 layers in a document with 10,000 layers where it's not necessary, there's a balance in everything, but in here everything is black and white.

It says more about you than about me that you think you can deduce anything from 0.001% of my layers from a small sample.

On no level can I take you seriously. When people present arguments here "you defend yourself." That is such an immature statement. Your need to rush forward immaturely and unseriously is striking. 

I'd love to hear what Serif has to say about this, but can't people like you just let customer and Serif talk undisturbed by noise!

 1) You have completely wrecked the layers panel, Serif.

2) I recommend Reddit groups instead of this forum. Not the same few bot-like users replying to everything, a wider representation of users, fewer fanboys, more qualified users. In short, better!

3) I was here to report bugs and submit improvement requests for professional work professionally in a large setup and to bring a lot of knowledge from the world, i.e. professional product development, web- and software development, usability, user experience design and accessibility. I actually know what I am talking about!

BUT! We are phasing out Designer and Affinity in 2022 Q1 - and replacing it with feature complete and algorithmically competent alternatives.
Publisher is unsuitable for serious use, and was never adopted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WTF are you talking about @mink . I have the same problem, my eyes run circles when I see those lines in front of groups and curves. It has nothing to do with layer naming. I still won't find easily WHERE that specific object is nested. It will take time to get used to it, like I said, I understand what those are meant to be, but so far they are slowing down my workflow as V1 was cleaner in that area. Maybe different color hues would help a lot. It's about getting lost in layer structure, nothing to do with renaming files.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/23/2022 at 1:57 PM, MEB said:

you can quickly collapse the level/group by clicking the first bar on the left side of the (selected) thumbnail - there's no need to go up to the group layer itself (or scroll up if the group isn't visible) to click the expand/collapse arrow.

Hm… could it be that this is broken – or not yet implemented – on iPad? Doesn't work for me there, currently having your own example file from another thread open in Designer. 

MacBookAir 15": MacOS Ventura > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // MacBookPro 15" mid-2012: MacOS El Capitan > Affinity v1 / MacOS Catalina > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // iPad 8th: iPadOS 16 > Affinity v2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Staff

@François R, @Bryan Rieger, @norbinw,
Just for completion sake before addressing the post below, the parent bars also allow you to quickly send a layer to the top or bottom of a group(s). In the clip below which i kept simple to help visualizing/demonstrating the feature, I'm moving the yellow circle to the top and then to the bottom of its group using the respective parent bar (this can be used with any parent bar of higher group hierarchies too). Notice there's two positions that highlight for each layer in the parent bars (top and bottom) which is what sets where the layer will be placed (above or below the group).
   

 

19 hours ago, François R said:

Thanks @MEB

That does make some sense; I just don't need it and suggest you make it optional. I need a clear interface much more. My layer hierarchy is often rather deep so I'll be looking at a confusing busy interface mess all the time. I can just decode and handle the interface faster without. I simply navigate up and down in my layers panel lightning fast with my scroll wheel so I never had issues locating, opening or closing groups. The way I use the panel with my mouse, the functionality is superfluous.

I need a search option more. 🙂 Actually finding something deep down the layers panel (I name every layer and group) is still impossible without without clicking your way to it. I simply don't understand why you have drowned the interface with elements to solve this small problem, when the big one of actually finding something easily without lots of clicks is not solved.

In any case, the graphical interface is too cluttered and contrasty. Indeed, I can also imagine that it greatly reduces accessibility for seniors and people with visual impairments. I hope you can come up with a less obtrusive solution.

Best regards

Regarding the post above, I understand this may feel a bit overkill/unnecessary to some while powerful/useful to others. I will pass your feedback to the dev team to see if/what can be done to make it better.

@François R,
Are you aware of the Select Same/select Object commands in the Select menu? They allow you to select layers with the same name, tag colour, by object type and various other attributes etc. Is this what are you looking for or do you meant something else (a search input field or something).

Thanks again for your support/feedback.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, MEB said:

@François R, @Bryan Rieger, @norbinw,
Just for completion sake before addressing the post below, the parent bars also allow you to quickly send a layer to the top or bottom of a group(s). In the clip below which i kept simple to help visualizing/demonstrating the feature, I'm moving the yellow circle to the top and then to the bottom of its group using the respective parent bar (this can be used with any parent bar of higher group hierarchies too). Notice there's two positions that highlight for each layer in the parent bars (top and bottom) which is what sets where the layer will be placed (above or below the group).
Regarding the post above, I understand this may feel a bit overkill/unnecessary to some while powerful/useful to others. I will pass your feedback to the dev team to see if/what can be done to make it better.

@François R,
Are you aware of the Select Same/select Object commands in the Select menu? They allow you to select layers with the same name, tag colour, by object type and various other attributes etc. Is this what are you looking for or do you meant something else (a search input field or something).

Thanks again for your support/feedback.

Thanks @MEB

I will try the first tips out. But would really prefer that the visuel mess is toned down. There must be a middle way. It is an interesting idea but I will probably stick to the classic method. I don't always need layers moved to the top or bottom but above or belov a specific object in the middle of many layers. Dragging it manually isn't that bad. I didn't work too well in v1, but it just needed slight improvement. Not this overhaul.

Whichever method you use, you need to have a clear, quick and unmistakable overview of the structure in a split second while working, and in both cases I find this visual chaos incredibly difficult and tiring to navigate. Anyway, that is how I feel about it. 🙂

Yes, I am aware of the select same etc. etc. but I am naming very different layers and groups carefully with specific and unique names. Imagine drawing a very, very detailed panorama of a city with a harbour, as I do currently (in v1, never current v2). I have many, many of buildings, one hundred+ TREES, MINK!!!, ships, boats, lighthouses, factory buildings, a castle, a hotel, all the details from a real world city. Including waves in the ocean, ships AND more. Most layers have unique names MINK! and unique content. Perhaps I have the structure organized like this (numbers included just to illustrate the levels):

1. Harbor (layer)

 1.1 Left side  (group)

   1.1.1 Cranes (group)

     1.1.1.1 Blue crane  (group)

       1.1.1.1.1 Base  (group)

       1.1.1.1.2 Top  (group)

             1.1.1.1.1 Siemens logo (curve)

             1.1.1.1.2 Structure (group)

        1.1.1.2 Tall crane

          etc.

          etc.

 1.2 Right side

Imagine this structure much deeper and much longer. In v2.

In this scenario I would love to be able to search for "Siemens" to find the Siemens logo. In my designs, I will typically look for something even further down the structure. Sometimes in very complex documents I have a lot layers and groups hidden for better performance and better focus while working. Finding something deep down in the layer structure is hard or impossible if hidden withouth the big click and search operation. My layer structure reflects the depth of the major and minor details in the city panorama and for each element in this panorama so I will have several layers with several Groups. 

So my designs are built up strictly hierarchically and of course in the order buildings and city details are actually in. It makes for a panorama of a port city that is partly up a hill, really many long and really many subgroups all in all. To my delight Affinity handes the complexity very well. Performance is great. But now I can't stand looking at the layers panel. 

I navigate a lot in this structure, and the most important thing is a simple overview of the structure, and to be able to move layers around quickly and accurately into the middle of a group. Not just top and bottom.

In my scenario, all this v2 news is no help. On the contrary, unfortunately. The only thing I hoped for in v2 was that drag and drop of layers worked a bit better with better visual feedback.    

Best regards

 1) You have completely wrecked the layers panel, Serif.

2) I recommend Reddit groups instead of this forum. Not the same few bot-like users replying to everything, a wider representation of users, fewer fanboys, more qualified users. In short, better!

3) I was here to report bugs and submit improvement requests for professional work professionally in a large setup and to bring a lot of knowledge from the world, i.e. professional product development, web- and software development, usability, user experience design and accessibility. I actually know what I am talking about!

BUT! We are phasing out Designer and Affinity in 2022 Q1 - and replacing it with feature complete and algorithmically competent alternatives.
Publisher is unsuitable for serious use, and was never adopted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Staff
3 hours ago, loukash said:

Hm… could it be that this is broken – or not yet implemented – on iPad? Doesn't work for me there, currently having your own example file from another thread open in Designer. 

Hi loukash,
It wasn't implemented on iPad yet (not clickable/functional). Should come in an upcoming patch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Guidelines | We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.