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Communication and Secrecy at Serif


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5 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

How? Serif still wpuldn't know if you own V1 or not from the App Store.

 

Serif doesn't need to know. You retain V1 for a short period (as long as it's kept updated with security and bug-fixes) on the App Store, along with V2 but at a lower price, and place both in a bundle. You then apply a discount for the bundle, so existing purchasers of V1 will automatically receive a discount on purchasing the bundle containing V2. E.g. V1 & V2 Photo bundle.

So there are a number of benefits to this approach:

  • Existing customers don't have to buy the package of all apps, they can simply choose which products they want to upgrade to.
  • It clarifies the confusion and concern over V1 security and bug-fix updates - as long as its on the Store it's shown to be still supported.
  • Existing customers don't feel they've been ignored and just dumped in with new customers with the same package.
  • Existing customers can make an informed decision on whether they want to purchase an upgrade - with a list of new features available, stick with a limited period update, or to buy the universal license.
  • This also gives you a lot more control over your pricing for future sales promotions.
16 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

So, in essence, anyone buying that bundle would be a new customer, buying a new license for V1 and V2. You, as an existing V1 customer, would end up paying more, because you're buying both, again.

 

Not if you'd followed this strategy last week on release of V2 (see above), as V1 products would still be listed for sale on the Store. Unfortunately as you removed existing products on the day you released the new ones last week, you problably no longer have the option of single product bundles.

 

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14 hours ago, debraspicher said:

Basically, while they absolutely cannot make business decisions solely based upon the discretion of a very limited demographic of users on their product forums, they should consider borrowing more inspiration towards development from the most attached of their user base as far as company interaction is considered.

The difficulty there is that many of the vocal users on the forums disagree.  I frequently see people asking for features that are an "absolutely must have" that are features that in thirty years of doing this stuff I have never had need for.  And there I things I need that others don't care about.  So . . . ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That said, accessible PDFs better be soon or the pitchforks need to come out.

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1 hour ago, monzo said:

You then apply a discount for the bundle, so existing purchasers of V1 will automatically receive a discount on purchasing the bundle containing V2. E.g. V1 & V2 Photo bundle.

But anyone would be able to buy the bundle, not just those who own V1, so it's the same as now where everyone gets a 40% discount on V2.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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37 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

But anyone would be able to buy the bundle, not just those who own V1, so it's the same as now where everyone gets a 40% discount on V2.

Existing customers have the option to complete the bundle at a discounted cost, set by the developer. So owners of V1, would pay less for the bundle than new customers. See "Complete My Bundle" here:

https://developer.apple.com/app-store/app-bundles/

So you have a price for V1, and V2, and a 'bundle' with a discounted price for existing purchasers of V1.

2 hours ago, Corgi said:

This thread was intended to be about Serif's communication with its user base.

The details about how v1=>v2 upgrades might've been done differently are interesting, but there are other threads that are more on point for that.

36 minutes ago, debraspicher said:

.

I'm responding to questions from Affinity staff, if that's ok with everyone else?

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15 minutes ago, monzo said:

Existing customers have the option to complete the bundle at a discounted cost, set by the developer. So owners of V1, would pay less for the bundle than new customers. See "Complete My Bundle" here:

https://developer.apple.com/app-store/app-bundles/

So you have a price for V1, and V2, and a 'bundle' with a discounted price for existing purchasers of V1.

Thanks. Did not know about that (as a non-Mac user, and non-developer of App Store apps :) )

So, that could be useful for Mac customers. Does the Microsoft Store have the equivalent, so their customers aren't left out?

16 minutes ago, monzo said:

I'm responding to questions from Affinity staff, if that's ok with everyone else?

Just to be clear, I'm not Affinity staff. There's no Staff badge by my avatar, and it doesn't say Moderator below it, nor above my posts. But I appreciate your resposes to my questions.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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12 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Thanks. Did not know about that (as a non-Mac user, and non-developer of App Store apps :) )

So, that could be useful for Mac customers. Does the Microsoft Store have the equivalent, so their customers aren't left out?

Just to be clear, I'm not Affinity staff. There's no Staff badge by my avatar, and it doesn't say Moderator below it, nor above my posts. But I appreciate your resposes to my questions.

No problem.

I've bought a number of discounted iOS apps from developers using this method via the App Store, I'm no longer using Windows however so can't confirm that one. Something similar could be introduced on Serif's own website - which would ensure consistency with the App Store at least.

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, monzo said:

Something similar could be introduced on Serif's own website - which would ensure consistency with the App Store at least.

But Serif does not know who the Microsoft Store users are, either. So unless your idea also works on the MS Store, it still leaves out a category of users. So that wouldn't be a good workaround, given Serif's stated goals.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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  • Staff

I was not aware of the cheaper bundle approach in Apples ecosystems, that's very interesting. However that would not have helped us with this launch.

I am not trying to argue here I really am not, but the apps HAD to be free to download (well as trials) in ALL the stores for us to offer the V2 Universal License method to work, so although the bundle approach might work in one store, we could not charge ANY MONEY for the iPad downloads or the Mac App store downloads and still have a V2 Universal License single purchase. 

Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man. True nobility lies in being superior to your previous self."  W. L. Sheldon

 

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12 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

But Serif does not know who the Microsoft Store users are, either. So unless your idea also works on the MS Store, it still leaves out a category of users. So that wouldn't be a good workaround, given Serif's stated goals.

I’ve no idea, I’m not the sales director for Affinity, just a slightly disgruntled customer who’s already bought everything - but it’s something that IMHO should have been checked out at least. I could look it up for you, but I’m spending far too much time on here already.

12 hours ago, Patrick Connor said:

I was not aware of the cheaper bundle approach in Apples ecosystems, that's very interesting. However that would not have helped us with this launch.

I am not trying to argue here I really am not, but the apps HAD to be free to download (well as trials) in ALL the stores for us to offer the V2 Universal License method to work, so although the bundle approach might work in one store, we could not charge ANY MONEY for the iPad downloads or the Mac App store downloads and still have a V2 Universal License single purchase. 

I don’t know if this makes a difference to your point above, and is a moot point if the Windows store doesn’t support it anyway, but your products on the App Store would still have the option for free trials regardless of being part of a bundle or not, they can still have IAP’s.

 

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5 hours ago, monzo said:

but your products on the App Store would still have the option for free trials regardless of being part of a bundle or not, they can still have IAP’s

How can you offer a discount for V2+V1 bundle to V1 owners, when V2 is free with IAP (to facilitate the V2 Universal License)? 

Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man. True nobility lies in being superior to your previous self."  W. L. Sheldon

 

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9 minutes ago, Patrick Connor said:

How can you offer a discount for V2+V1 bundle to V1 owners, when V2 is free with IAP (to facilitate the V2 Universal License)? 

You set the bundle price. So for example you could set the bundle price at the V2 full cost with the IAP unlock, minus 50% of what the customer has paid for V1 (Apple will have logged and calculated this already), so if they’ve already enjoyed a discount they might not be entitled to another.

I guess the tricky part could be assigning the V2 unlock to the bundle purchase, but it’s worth checking with Apple. Your products help to raise the potential for graphic arts use on the iPad, so they might be able to provide a workaround if the IAP is a stumbling block.

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2 minutes ago, monzo said:

V2 full cost with the IAP unlock

Oh I don't think that's possible, yes I see how that might work if possible 

Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man. True nobility lies in being superior to your previous self."  W. L. Sheldon

 

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6 minutes ago, monzo said:

I guess the tricky part could be assigning the V2 unlock to the bundle purchase, but it’s worth checking with Apple. Your products help to raise the potential for graphic arts use on the iPad, so they might be able to provide a workaround if the IAP is a stumbling block.

Their products also require adoption of latest iOS and MacOS versions, and therefore newer hardware. Which Apple loves! And I think this is, sadly, why Affinity does it. To get that love. So they might as well use some of that love to their advantage.

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Well, I see that the thread topic has morphed. Sigh. So I guess it's up to me to solve the problem with the upgrade pricing!

The solution is obvious. Serif needs to split into at least four separate companies: one to develop the technology, and then one independent company for each venue through which the product is sold (Affinity Store, Apple, Microsoft...). Then the latter companies can license the underlying technology from the development company, and then they will be free to set their own pricing policies which can be optimized for their particular sales channel!

No thanks necessary! 😁

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2 minutes ago, Corgi said:

Well, I see that the thread topic has morphed. Sigh. So I guess it's up to me to solve the problem with the upgrade pricing!

The solution is obvious. Serif needs to split into at least four separate companies: one to develop the technology, and then one independent company for each venue through which the product is sold (Affinity Store, Apple, Microsoft...). Then the latter companies can license the underlying technology from the development company, and then they will be free to set their own pricing policies which can be optimized for their particular sales channel!

No thanks necessary! 😁

And a public relations company to do all the announcements that defers to the others for secrecy reasons.

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50 minutes ago, Patrick Connor said:

Oh I don't think that's possible, yes I see how that might work if possible 

Actually, that part probably is possible, since you're setting the bundle price - you should be able to just set the amount for the bundle based on the V2 IAP cost, with a percentage discount for existing customers. As long as Apple have registered the IAP payment for V1 (that, could be a potential tricky bit) it can make the discount calculation.

I think it's worth talking to Apple and see what they can offer - and if they do register IAP payments then it might be as straightforward as I've listed. You've missed the boat this time, but it's worth bearing in mind for future releases (assuming Windows can provide the same bundle discounts).

 

37 minutes ago, Corgi said:

Well, I see that the thread topic has morphed. Sigh. So I guess it's up to me to solve the problem with the upgrade pricing!

Yeah sorry, if Patrick thinks this idea has any legs maybe he can send me a DM.

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3 hours ago, deeds said:

Their products also require adoption of latest iOS and MacOS versions, and therefore newer hardware. Which Apple loves! And I think this is, sadly, why Affinity does it. To get that love. So they might as well use some of that love to their advantage.

Yes, this is a problem but also a benefit. Deals with the Devil usually work this way.

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In the context of "Communications" has Serif has a serious internal leadership concerning the buying and paying structure going forward?

For example and when version 3 arrives, this is going to years from now, Serif and Affinity Suite of Applications will have name recognition. By then, I would like Serif to drop selling their "apps" in the Apple and Google Play app stores and fully move over selling of APPLICATIONS here at Serif.

This way, Serif can provide upgrade paths and every transaction will go to Serif and not having Apple/Google Play app store taking any percentage cuts.

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4 hours ago, Ronald N. Tan said:

By then, I would like Serif to drop selling their "apps" in the Apple and Google Play app stores and fully move over selling of APPLICATIONS here at Serif.

No offense intended, but I seriously wonder how did you come to the conclusion that this would be a good business strategy?

MacBookAir 15": MacOS Ventura > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // MacBookPro 15" mid-2012: MacOS El Capitan > Affinity v1 / MacOS Catalina > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // iPad 8th: iPadOS 16 > Affinity v2

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