Communication and Secrecy at Serif

[debraspicher]

1 hour ago, Corgi said:

This thread was intended to be about Serif's communication with its user base.

The details about how v1=>v2 upgrades might've been done differently are interesting, but there are other threads that are more on point for that.

.

[monzo]

37 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

But anyone would be able to buy the bundle, not just those who own V1, so it's the same as now where everyone gets a 40% discount on V2.

Existing customers have the option to complete the bundle at a discounted cost, set by the developer. So owners of V1, would pay less for the bundle than new customers. See "Complete My Bundle" here:

https://developer.apple.com/app-store/app-bundles/

So you have a price for V1, and V2, and a 'bundle' with a discounted price for existing purchasers of V1.

2 hours ago, Corgi said:

This thread was intended to be about Serif's communication with its user base.

The details about how v1=>v2 upgrades might've been done differently are interesting, but there are other threads that are more on point for that.

36 minutes ago, debraspicher said:

.

I'm responding to questions from Affinity staff, if that's ok with everyone else?

[walt.farrell]

15 minutes ago, monzo said:

Existing customers have the option to complete the bundle at a discounted cost, set by the developer. So owners of V1, would pay less for the bundle than new customers. See "Complete My Bundle" here:

https://developer.apple.com/app-store/app-bundles/

So you have a price for V1, and V2, and a 'bundle' with a discounted price for existing purchasers of V1.

Thanks. Did not know about that (as a non-Mac user, and non-developer of App Store apps )

So, that could be useful for Mac customers. Does the Microsoft Store have the equivalent, so their customers aren't left out?

16 minutes ago, monzo said:

I'm responding to questions from Affinity staff, if that's ok with everyone else?

Just to be clear, I'm not Affinity staff. There's no Staff badge by my avatar, and it doesn't say Moderator below it, nor above my posts. But I appreciate your resposes to my questions.

[monzo]

12 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Thanks. Did not know about that (as a non-Mac user, and non-developer of App Store apps )

So, that could be useful for Mac customers. Does the Microsoft Store have the equivalent, so their customers aren't left out?

Just to be clear, I'm not Affinity staff. There's no Staff badge by my avatar, and it doesn't say Moderator below it, nor above my posts. But I appreciate your resposes to my questions.

No problem.

I've bought a number of discounted iOS apps from developers using this method via the App Store, I'm no longer using Windows however so can't confirm that one. Something similar could be introduced on Serif's own website - which would ensure consistency with the App Store at least.

 

 

 

 

[walt.farrell]

15 minutes ago, monzo said:

Something similar could be introduced on Serif's own website - which would ensure consistency with the App Store at least.

But Serif does not know who the Microsoft Store users are, either. So unless your idea also works on the MS Store, it still leaves out a category of users. So that wouldn't be a good workaround, given Serif's stated goals.

[Patrick Connor]

I was not aware of the cheaper bundle approach in Apples ecosystems, that's very interesting. However that would not have helped us with this launch.

I am not trying to argue here I really am not, but the apps HAD to be free to download (well as trials) in ALL the stores for us to offer the V2 Universal License method to work, so although the bundle approach might work in one store, we could not charge ANY MONEY for the iPad downloads or the Mac App store downloads and still have a V2 Universal License single purchase. 

[monzo]

12 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

But Serif does not know who the Microsoft Store users are, either. So unless your idea also works on the MS Store, it still leaves out a category of users. So that wouldn't be a good workaround, given Serif's stated goals.

I’ve no idea, I’m not the sales director for Affinity, just a slightly disgruntled customer who’s already bought everything - but it’s something that IMHO should have been checked out at least. I could look it up for you, but I’m spending far too much time on here already.

12 hours ago, Patrick Connor said:

I was not aware of the cheaper bundle approach in Apples ecosystems, that's very interesting. However that would not have helped us with this launch.

I am not trying to argue here I really am not, but the apps HAD to be free to download (well as trials) in ALL the stores for us to offer the V2 Universal License method to work, so although the bundle approach might work in one store, we could not charge ANY MONEY for the iPad downloads or the Mac App store downloads and still have a V2 Universal License single purchase. 

I don’t know if this makes a difference to your point above, and is a moot point if the Windows store doesn’t support it anyway, but your products on the App Store would still have the option for free trials regardless of being part of a bundle or not, they can still have IAP’s.

 

[Patrick Connor]

5 hours ago, monzo said:

but your products on the App Store would still have the option for free trials regardless of being part of a bundle or not, they can still have IAP’s

How can you offer a discount for V2+V1 bundle to V1 owners, when V2 is free with IAP (to facilitate the V2 Universal License)? 

[monzo]

9 minutes ago, Patrick Connor said:

How can you offer a discount for V2+V1 bundle to V1 owners, when V2 is free with IAP (to facilitate the V2 Universal License)? 

You set the bundle price. So for example you could set the bundle price at the V2 full cost with the IAP unlock, minus 50% of what the customer has paid for V1 (Apple will have logged and calculated this already), so if they’ve already enjoyed a discount they might not be entitled to another.

I guess the tricky part could be assigning the V2 unlock to the bundle purchase, but it’s worth checking with Apple. Your products help to raise the potential for graphic arts use on the iPad, so they might be able to provide a workaround if the IAP is a stumbling block.

[Patrick Connor]

2 minutes ago, monzo said:

V2 full cost with the IAP unlock

Oh I don't think that's possible, yes I see how that might work if possible 

[deeds]

6 minutes ago, monzo said:

I guess the tricky part could be assigning the V2 unlock to the bundle purchase, but it’s worth checking with Apple. Your products help to raise the potential for graphic arts use on the iPad, so they might be able to provide a workaround if the IAP is a stumbling block.

Their products also require adoption of latest iOS and MacOS versions, and therefore newer hardware. Which Apple loves! And I think this is, sadly, why Affinity does it. To get that love. So they might as well use some of that love to their advantage.

[Corgi]

Well, I see that the thread topic has morphed. Sigh. So I guess it's up to me to solve the problem with the upgrade pricing!

The solution is obvious. Serif needs to split into at least four separate companies: one to develop the technology, and then one independent company for each venue through which the product is sold (Affinity Store, Apple, Microsoft...). Then the latter companies can license the underlying technology from the development company, and then they will be free to set their own pricing policies which can be optimized for their particular sales channel!

No thanks necessary! 😁

[deeds]

2 minutes ago, Corgi said:

Well, I see that the thread topic has morphed. Sigh. So I guess it's up to me to solve the problem with the upgrade pricing!

The solution is obvious. Serif needs to split into at least four separate companies: one to develop the technology, and then one independent company for each venue through which the product is sold (Affinity Store, Apple, Microsoft...). Then the latter companies can license the underlying technology from the development company, and then they will be free to set their own pricing policies which can be optimized for their particular sales channel!

No thanks necessary! 😁

And a public relations company to do all the announcements that defers to the others for secrecy reasons.

[monzo]

50 minutes ago, Patrick Connor said:

Oh I don't think that's possible, yes I see how that might work if possible 

Actually, that part probably is possible, since you're setting the bundle price - you should be able to just set the amount for the bundle based on the V2 IAP cost, with a percentage discount for existing customers. As long as Apple have registered the IAP payment for V1 (that, could be a potential tricky bit) it can make the discount calculation.

I think it's worth talking to Apple and see what they can offer - and if they do register IAP payments then it might be as straightforward as I've listed. You've missed the boat this time, but it's worth bearing in mind for future releases (assuming Windows can provide the same bundle discounts).

 

37 minutes ago, Corgi said:

Well, I see that the thread topic has morphed. Sigh. So I guess it's up to me to solve the problem with the upgrade pricing!

Yeah sorry, if Patrick thinks this idea has any legs maybe he can send me a DM.

[debraspicher]

Serif trying the Adobe negotiation maneuver with their Apple rep:

[debraspicher]

3 hours ago, deeds said:

Their products also require adoption of latest iOS and MacOS versions, and therefore newer hardware. Which Apple loves! And I think this is, sadly, why Affinity does it. To get that love. So they might as well use some of that love to their advantage.

Yes, this is a problem but also a benefit. Deals with the Devil usually work this way.

[Ronald N. Tan]

In the context of "Communications" has Serif has a serious internal leadership concerning the buying and paying structure going forward?

For example and when version 3 arrives, this is going to years from now, Serif and Affinity Suite of Applications will have name recognition. By then, I would like Serif to drop selling their "apps" in the Apple and Google Play app stores and fully move over selling of APPLICATIONS here at Serif.

This way, Serif can provide upgrade paths and every transaction will go to Serif and not having Apple/Google Play app store taking any percentage cuts.

[loukash]

4 hours ago, Ronald N. Tan said:

By then, I would like Serif to drop selling their "apps" in the Apple and Google Play app stores and fully move over selling of APPLICATIONS here at Serif.

No offense intended, but I seriously wonder how did you come to the conclusion that this would be a good business strategy?

[debraspicher]

2 hours ago, loukash said:

No offense intended, but I seriously wonder how did you come to the conclusion that this would be a good business strategy?

Also, doesn't that make it more difficult for iPad users? Do people know how to sideload?

[loukash]

Just now, debraspicher said:

doesn't that make it more difficult for iPad users? Do people know how to sideload?

I'm an iPad user since over 10 years, and yet I have absolutely no clue how to "sideload"… 

[debraspicher]

Just now, loukash said:

I'm an iPad user since over 10 years, and yet I have absolutely no clue how to "sideload"… 

Basically, install apps from outside the appstore. I would think you would need like a few checkboxes and a guilt screen before Apple lets you run something from outside their store. Android is like this.

[Corgi]

6 hours ago, Ronald N. Tan said:

In the context of "Communications" has Serif has a serious internal leadership concerning the buying and paying structure going forward?

Ah, here is a good test case to see whether Serif is going to improve its communication practices!

Assuming someone at the company sees that question (which is a big 'if' considering the volume of forum activity at the moment), there should be an official response to it, one way or another. Because a reply to that would constitute good communication, and it's likely that it can be answered without divulging any sensitive information.

Here's what I imagine Serif's response might be, if they responded today (maybe they've already posted something like this elsewhere on the forums, IDK):

Thank you for that question. To anyone who has been following the forum activity since last week's v2 announcement, it will come as no surprise that we are aware that some customers who have previously purchased version 1 of Affinity applications are dissatisfied with our pricing strategy for v2, even with our 40% launch discount. Although we had limited flexibility in upgrade pricing due to constraints imposed by the Apple and Microsoft app stores, and although we subsequently decided to offer free or further-reduced pricing for recent purchasers of Affinity v1, it is clear that we did not anticipate that our pricing model would be such an unpleasant surprise for so many of you.

Version 2 of the Affinity suite represents our first paid upgrade since version 1 was released many years ago, and this rollout has been a learning experience for us here at Serif. Please know that we will be considering your feedback carefully and taking steps to ensure that we do a better job of this in the future. As it has been only ten days since release, it will take some time for us to absorb your feedback, reflect on the rollout, explore our options, and then take actions to improve matters as best we can.

While we recognize that there's never a way to please everyone when it comes to pricing, we are certain that we fell short of the mark in communicating our upgrade pricing and upgrade policies. We apologize for this and are committed to not repeating these mistakes again.

One advantage of being a small company is that we can learn and adapt quickly, and that's what we intend to do. We here at Serif are proud of our products, proud of our customers, and take great pleasure in seeing you all succeed. Your success will become our success. 

 

[loukash]

1 minute ago, debraspicher said:

Basically, install apps from outside the appstore

Thanks, and sorry for being a bit vague, but I know what the term means.  
What I meant by my slightly sarcastic remark was that I've never seen the point in sideloading, or jailbreaking for that matter. In my opinion, it's not worth the hassle tinkering with the i(Pad)OS ecosystem. Basically, for me at least, it works fine as is.

That said though, on the other hand I'm doing a plenty of "nasty" things to my MacOS installations. Things that kids definitely shouldn't be trying at home on their dads' computers, haha. 

Anyway. 
My point – and question to @Ronald N. Tan – actually was, why the idea of Serif "[dropping the sale of] their apps in the Apple and Google Play app stores" should be of any benefit for Serif. At the scale that Serif operates, i.e. being among the best selling apps on the Apple Store of their category and thus likely making a loads of cash there, it doesn't make sense.

3 minutes ago, Corgi said:

whether Serif is going to improve its communication practices

I've been connected to Teh Interwebz since March 2000, buying lots of software online since then, and frequenting quite a few support forums regularly, including a few years of being a voluntary support forum moderator for a DJ software.
Serif's online support and communication via their forums is one of the best I've experienced in the past 22 years. Period.

[Corgi]

7 minutes ago, loukash said:

...

I've been connected to Teh Interwebz since March 2000, buying lots of software online since then, and frequenting quite a few support forums regularly, including a few years of being a voluntary support forum moderator for a DJ software.
Serif's online support and communication via their forums is one of the best I've experienced in the past 22 years. Period.

Well, I've been using BBSs like Compuserve since way before that, and the "series of tubes" since the mid 1990s. 😉

As I wrote in my initial post (see below), Serif has been excellent in certain aspects of communication in the forums. In particular, engaging customers to help them out with technical issues, bugs, Betas, and the like. On that point, I agree with you completely. For some users, these are the aspects of communication that matter the most.

But there are other aspects of communication (examples also below and in my original topic starter), and Serif hasn't exactly aced those IMO. 
 

On 11/16/2022 at 1:40 PM, Corgi said:

...

In the forums, Serif staff are very responsive to questions about bugs, existing features, and product behavior, which is absolutely wonderful.

On the other hand, my perception is that questions about Serif's short- or long-term plans, or even in some cases questions about existing policies, are greeted with a frustrating silence. 

[PaulEC]

Having read through (most) of the foregoing, and various other threads, two things strike me:

Firstly that, by jumping through many hoops, and with a lot of extra work (by people who were probably quite busy with other things) it may have been possible to identify most of the “loyal” customers who had previously purchased v1 of the Affinity apps.

Secondly, that, as has been stated several times, the discount given to everyone was the maximum that Serif could offer.

Therefore, having gone to a great deal of trouble, Serif would have given exactly the same discount to the “loyal” customers that these customers have been given anyway! The only difference would be that new customers could be charged more! Now, while this might boost the egos of a minority of the “loyal” customers ( I’m sure most people have no problem with everyone getting the same generous discount) I can’t see any other benefits to anyone! (I suspect that any extra profit Serif made by giving a smaller discount to new customers would be offset against lower sales due to the higher price.) So, Serif do a lot of extra work, when they are already working hard, so that they can keep a small group of customers happy, by charging new customers more for the same product! (Despite the fact that Serif themselves were quite happy to give everyone the same discount.)

The end result: Serif do a lot of extra work. No one is any better off. New customers are worse off. A small group of “entitled” people have their egos boosted because they feel they have been “thanked” for purchasing a product that they wanted to buy anyway.. (No one has to buy it if they don’t want to do so.)

Final thoughts: (I accept I may be in a minority here) Although I have been a Serif customer for many years I don’t feel any need to be “thanked” for buying a product that I want, and choose, to buy. Any discount, loyalty bonus, opening offer, free gift etc they choose to offer is gratefully received (and may affect my decision to make the purchase) but is not considered to be a “right”, just because I have made previous purchases. Serif appears to me to be a fairly successful company, not a charity, or a struggling entrepreneur, therefore I feel no inclination to “support” them by buying their software if I don’t actually want to use it.

Essentially, Serif is a business, selling Affinity software. I decide to purchase and use their software based on it’s features, quality, price etc. If I came across better software, at a better price, I would use it instead. (That said, as mentioned, I have been using Serif software for quite a number of years!) I would not use it, if I did not want to, simply through some sense of “loyalty”. I don’t think of myself as “supporting” Serif particularly, I am simply a customer purchasing a product that I wish to use.

If other people feel that they are entitled to special treatment, simply because they have made a previous purchase from the same company, that’s up to them. If it makes them feel better, because other people end up worse off than they are, that is also up to them!

At the end of the day I doubt if anyone really buys something simply due to any genuine feelings of “loyalty” to a particular company, nor will they buy something they don’t want or need just to “support” a thriving business! If you have so much money that you buy things that you don’t want or need, why complain if you don’t get a bigger discount than someone else? If you do want the product, rather than an alternative one, why complain that you are not being “thanked” for buying it?

(Sorry for this rather repetitious rant, but repetition seems to be the way this thread, and similar ones, are going!)

Having had my say, I will now shut up, leave others to their interminable, repetitious arguments, and get on with doing some work with my Affinity software!