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Old users = new users?


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4 hours ago, saikat said:



Yes, they are not giving the existing customers any special discount for loyalty, but considering its perpetual license and how much (or how little) it costs, esp with the discount - it's still a very good deal.
 

 

It's a good deal, but it also sends a message to me that after paying hundreds of pounds already for these products, and recommending them to hundreds of others generating hundreds of new sales, my customer loyalty is valued at exactly zero. Instead I now own a collection of abandonware. And to keep it updated, I will be paying exactly the same as someone who has done none of these things. Existing products removed overnight, no future updates, no upgrade path for existing customers.

Not the greatest customer relations strategy I've experienced.

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7 minutes ago, monzo said:

It's a good deal, but it also sends a message to me that after paying hundreds of pounds already for these products, and recommending them to hundreds of others generating hundreds of new sales, my customer loyalty is valued at exactly zero. Instead I now own a collection of abandonware. And to keep it updated, I will be paying exactly the same as someone who has done none of these things. Existing products removed overnight, no future updates, no upgrade path for existing customers.

Not the greatest customer relations strategy I've experienced.

Exactly. I was waiting for a new product, but not that way.

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3 minutes ago, monzo said:

It's a good deal, but it also sends a message to me that after paying hundreds of pounds already for these products, and recommending them to hundreds of others generating hundreds of new sales, my customer loyalty is valued at exactly zero. Instead I now own a collection of abandonware. And to keep it updated, I will be paying exactly the same as someone who has done none of these things. Existing products removed overnight, no future updates, no upgrade path for existing customers.

Not the greatest customer relations strategy I've experienced.

I agree with you - like many other decisions and despite the opposition or recommendation and requests - Serif chooses to ignore and plows through with their plans. I am quite amazed at this decision which I think despite their argument of 40% has not gone down well with so many existing users and they should have had a better plan. I an not upgrading to 2 and not because of the price but the lack of need to do so. V1 does what I need and am leaving it at that until further notice but still think - this was not a good move in terms of customer loyalty.

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5 hours ago, saikat said:

There are many threads on this forum on this since the 2.0 launch.

Yes, they are not giving the existing customers any special discount for loyalty, but considering its perpetual license and how much (or how little) it costs, esp with the discount - it's still a very good deal.
 

 

It's a perpetual license for a dead product.

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24 minutes ago, monzo said:

Existing products removed overnight,

8 minutes ago, Florin Iaru said:

It's a perpetual license for a dead product.

It hasn't been "removed", it isn't "dead". – The v1 versions of all the Affinity apps work (and will probably continue to work for the foreseeable future) in exactly the same way now as they did before the release of v2!

Acer XC-895 : Core i5-10400 Hexa-core 2.90 GHz :  32GB RAM : Intel UHD Graphics 630 : Windows 10 Home
Affinity Publisher 2 : Affinity Photo 2 : Affinity Designer 2 : (latest release versions) on desktop and iPad

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9 minutes ago, PaulEC said:

It hasn't been "removed"

The V1 products have been replaced by totally new products. Or, removed, as I stated. Still available for download if you've already bought them, but they are no longer available for sale, which means no updates, no individual product bundles on the App Store, and no upgrade path for existing customers.

 

10 minutes ago, PaulEC said:

The v1 versions of all the Affinity apps work (and will probably continue to work for the foreseeable future) in exactly the same way now as they did before the release of v2!

Unfortunately you can't define "for the foreseeable future". Which gives existing customers a dilemma - do we gamble our purchases will work as they should, and be secure after the next batch of iOS/Mac/Windows updates, and pay a higher price later for the new versions, or do we stump up another £90 now to keep them updated? And if we wait, how long will V2 be around for? Will we buy that in 6 months time, only to find there's a V3 a few months later?

An upgrade path not only 'rewards' my loyalty as a customer, it also reassures me that I'm not locked into - what by all appearances resembles - a subscription type system.

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I 100% agree with you. If I could suggest one thing to Serif it would be transparency in terms of the software lifecycle. As a customer I want to know the End of Life and End of Support for a product I am purchasing. Especially in the business market where software vendors go so far as to release Longterm Servicing (LTSR) products. The current state is at best a gamble, you are buying a product that could be released as yet another major version in the next year. It really doesn't inspire a lot of confidence and has definitely made me think twice before even thinking about buying V2.

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@monzo  @Florin Iaru @Sam Neil @BAKAI @PaulEC

In 2012, Photoshop CS6 costed US $700 and Photoshop CS6 Extended costed $1000 that was its last perpetual license - there was no new features added after the release - the bug-fix updates also stopped sometime after Creative Cloud came out one year later. 

Affinity Photo V2 costs US$ 41 (without discount $70) so does  Designer and Publisher.

In 2012 Photoshop, Illustrator and Indesign would cost $1400-$2000 (depending on if you buy it as a package or individually)
Affinity V2 Suite costs US$ 100 (without discount $170)

Affinity's suite costs less than 2 months of rental of similar apps from the other company!
and for those rental apps, you have nothing to claim if you stop paying - even if you spend thousands of dollars over a few years. 

Are you guys really upset about the price? or are you upset that you didn't get any preferential treatment over the new users?
Would you be happy if it costed more to the new user? or do you think what you are getting from Affinity is not worth its price?
Think about it...

(I for myself was expecting some features that are missing in V2, and I am struggling how their new MSIX based installation works on Windows,  But weighing the overall situation, such as - regressive rental model from almost all creative software companies,  lack of decent professional apps with perpetual license and not to mention the price and how Affinity could manage to do a few things better than the rental apps developed by the market leader with practically unlimited resources!!
I see the Affinity apps as nothing less than a miracle for me and I would do whatever little I could to to support them and make their business model sustainable..)

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Yearly major version updates are essentially the same as Sketch's legacy license where you pay for a year of updates but get to keep what you've bought up to the point where it expired.

Given that the v1 license lasted for 5 years I don't see v3 coming out in a year. Maybe it'll be 3 or 4 (who knows) but it's still a bargain.

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1 hour ago, SKT7 said:

@monzo  @Florin Iaru @Sam Neil @BAKAI @PaulEC

In 2012, Photoshop CS6 costed US $700 and Photoshop CS6 Extended costed $1000 that was the its last perpetual license - there was no new features added after the release - the bug-fix updates also stopped sometime after Creative Cloud came out one year later. 

Affinity Photo V2 costs US$ 41 (without discount $70) so does  Designer and Publisher.

In 2012 Photoshop, Illustrator and Indesign would cost $1400-$2000 (depending on if you buy it as a package or individually)
Affinity V2 Suite costs US$ 100 (without discount $170)

Affinity's suite costs less than 2 months of rental of similar apps from the other company!
and for those rental apps, you have nothing to claim if you stop paying - even if you spend thousands of dollars over a few years. 

Are you guys really upset about the price? or are you upset that you didn't get any preferential treatment over the new users?
Would you be happy if it costed more to the new user? or do you think what you are getting from Affinity is not worth its price?
Think about it...

(I for myself was expecting some features that are missing in V2, and I am struggling how their new MSIX based installation works on Windows,  But weighing the overall situation, such as - regressive rental model from almost all creative software companies,  lack of decent professional apps with perpetual license and not to mention the price and how Affinity could manage to do a few things better than the rental apps developed by the market leader with practically unlimited resources!!
I see the Affinity apps as nothing less than a miracle for me and I would do whatever little I could to to support them and make their business model sustainable..)

I can't speak for everyone, but agree with those who have voiced this simple fact: Serif made conscious decisions that alienated many existing users:

  • No public beta
  • Abandoned development of known V1 bug fixes AND passing said bugs into V2
  • Surprise announcement that underwhelmed in many respects, including rendering some existing V1 add-ons incompatible 
  • Acknowledged support abandonment of V1 beginning with V2 launch, essentially creating a de facto subscription model
  • Decision to provide no discounted upgrade path to existing users that encouraged continued brand loyalty

For me, this is not about price. It's about how Serif values its existing customers, myself included, as demonstrated by its actions. 

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23 hours ago, CWFII said:

Abandoned development of known V1 bug fixes AND passing said bugs into V2

If you know any company that fixes all bugs before moving to the next version. I would love to know.
Even much more expensive software (CAD) that costs thousands of dollars offer bug fixes only for 1 year after purchase - and unless you buy AMC that also cost thousands of dollar you don't get any bug fix after it, even for the same version!!
 

23 hours ago, CWFII said:

Surprise announcement that underwhelmed in many respects, including rendering some existing V1 add-ons incompatible 

Again, pls show me one company who does it? 

 

23 hours ago, CWFII said:

Acknowledged support abandonment of V1 beginning with V2 launch, essentially creating a de facto subscription model

If you want to really see it as a subscription model, it's a subscription model where the app cost about 0.4 to 2 USD per month per app and you can use it as long as you want after paying!!  As opposed to ~20 USD per month and you can't pay , you can't use it even for a minute... can you notice the difference?

 

23 hours ago, CWFII said:

Decision to provide no discounted upgrade path to existing users that encouraged continued brand loyalty

Yes, they are not making the existing users feel special by discriminating against the new users with inflated price - but that's how they are actually making it balanced - if you are the 'most loyal' and using affinity apps from the beginning and you got the discounted price you have been essentially paying about US$ 0.4 per month ( USD 30 for 72 months ) where as if you just got it last month you are paying more and more - upto USD 50-60 for one month* (although I read on one thread here that Serif is upgrading the licenses to V2 for free if you got it very recently). 

 

On 11/12/2022 at 1:19 AM, erutan said:

Given that the v1 license lasted for 5 years I don't see v3 coming out in a year. Maybe it'll be 3 or 4 (who knows) but it's still a bargain.

Yes! I hope so or else they would look like Luminar/Skylum etc. 

 

13 hours ago, BAKAI said:

I am an user of Serif from 2008 may be. So I know what Serif's Product & Price Structure was/is for a long time.

That's great. To be honest, I had never heard of Serif before they announced Affinity Photo and Designer in 2015.
I used Adobe for 16-17 years and it was very painful to move away from them to say the least - it took few years for me to get comfortable with Affinity and come to terms with its limitations and differences - but I didn't want to support the regressive rental model of Adobe and Affinity was the only worthwhile alternative for me. I feel it was worth it and overall I am very happy with Affinity.  
If your experience has been mostly bad and you don't feel it's worth it, I wonder why don't you move to a better alternative...
 

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15 hours ago, SKT7 said:

@monzo  @Florin Iaru @Sam Neil @BAKAI @PaulEC

In 2012, Photoshop CS6 costed US $700 and Photoshop CS6 Extended costed $1000 that was its last perpetual license - there was no new features added after the release - the bug-fix updates also stopped sometime after Creative Cloud came out one year later. 

Affinity Photo V2 costs US$ 41 (without discount $70) so does  Designer and Publisher.
 

It's not about the money (no one blames the price), it's about the fact that any upgrade costs less than the original software.

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3 hours ago, BAKAI said:

As long as I uninstall  MS update..... 😄 V1 works.

Can you not grasp the simple fact that this problem was caused by a Windows update, that's why the workaround is to remove that particular update!!! – Why blame Serif for a problem caused by Microsoft?

Acer XC-895 : Core i5-10400 Hexa-core 2.90 GHz :  32GB RAM : Intel UHD Graphics 630 : Windows 10 Home
Affinity Publisher 2 : Affinity Photo 2 : Affinity Designer 2 : (latest release versions) on desktop and iPad

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5 minutes ago, Florin Iaru said:

It's not about the money (no one blames the price), it's about the fact that any upgrade costs less than the original software.

Well, the three v1 apps cost me a total of £112.97 (that includes a couple at sale prices) – I can now get the whole v2 suite of apps for £89.99. I'm not great at maths, but it seems to me that v2 is costing less than v1! (And I also get the iPad and Mac versions included, if I want to use them!)

Acer XC-895 : Core i5-10400 Hexa-core 2.90 GHz :  32GB RAM : Intel UHD Graphics 630 : Windows 10 Home
Affinity Publisher 2 : Affinity Photo 2 : Affinity Designer 2 : (latest release versions) on desktop and iPad

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1 hour ago, BAKAI said:

my all other applications works normally in my desktop except Affinity with all update from MS

I'm pleased for you. But a lot of people have other apps that are also affected by this update! As I said, if you want to blame someone, blame Microsoft, the changes to .Net framework are down to them!

Acer XC-895 : Core i5-10400 Hexa-core 2.90 GHz :  32GB RAM : Intel UHD Graphics 630 : Windows 10 Home
Affinity Publisher 2 : Affinity Photo 2 : Affinity Designer 2 : (latest release versions) on desktop and iPad

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6 hours ago, SKT7 said:
19 hours ago, CWFII said:

Abandoned development of known V1 bug fixes AND passing said bugs into V2

If you know any company that fixes all bugs before moving to the next version. I would love to know.

Please read again what I wrote. I never said anything about fixing all bugs before moving on to the next version. Serif stopped working on known bugs AND knowingly pushed those bugs in V2. 

6 hours ago, SKT7 said:
19 hours ago, CWFII said:

Surprise announcement that underwhelmed in many respects, including rendering some existing V1 add-ons incompatible 

Again, pls show me one company who does it? 

I don't understand this question. Serif is not the first company to launch a major upgrade and underwhelm part of its existing user base. Serif chose to not conduct a public beta prior to release that would have given existing V1 users a chance to help with its development and identify add-in incompatibilities prior to release. Did Serif's in-house beta include V1 third-party add-in developers in the mix? 

6 hours ago, SKT7 said:
19 hours ago, CWFII said:

Acknowledged support abandonment of V1 beginning with V2 launch, essentially creating a de facto subscription model

If you want to really see it as a subscription model, it's a subscription model where the app cost about 0.4 to 2 USD per month per app and you can use it as long as you want after paying!!  As opposed to ~20 USD per month and you can't pay , you can't use it even for a minute... can you notice the difference?

The difference is clear. What has been glossed over is Serif's decision to summarily abandon V1 with no notice to existing users prior to V2 release. Transparency means a lot to consumers. Had Serif indicated during V2 development that (a) they had stopped working on V1 bugs, (b) would stop supporting V1 with the V2 release, and (c) would not provide existing V1 users with a favorable upgrade path that rewarded consumer loyalty, the customer response would be markedly different. 

6 hours ago, SKT7 said:
19 hours ago, CWFII said:

Decision to provide no discounted upgrade path to existing users that encouraged continued brand loyalty

Yes, they are not making the existing users feel special by discriminating against the new users with inflated price - but that's how they are actually doing making it balanced - if you are the 'most loyal' and using affinity apps from the beginning and you got the discounted price you have been essentially paying about US$ 0.4 per month ( USD 30 for 72 months ) where as if you just got it last month you are paying more and more - upto USD 50-60 for one month* (although I read on one thread here that Serif is upgrading the licenses to V2 for free if you got it very recently). 

So this "most loyal" discount was reflected in the V1 price when V1 users bought V1 and used V1 for a period of time prior to V2 release? This logic makes zero sense. Most reputable software companies who do not use a subscription model provide a discounted upgrade path for prior version license holders as a reward for their loyalty. This price differs from the price offered for new users buying the new release. Serif chose not to do this. Note this is not about a particular price level; it's about Serif's chosen approach. 

That said, I do appreciate Serif taking care of recent V1 purchasers; that's the right thing to do.

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On 11/11/2022 at 7:15 PM, SKT7 said:

@monzo  @Florin Iaru @Sam Neil @BAKAI @PaulEC

In 2012, Photoshop CS6 costed US $700 and Photoshop CS6 Extended costed $1000 that was its last perpetual license - there was no new features added after the release - the bug-fix updates also stopped sometime after Creative Cloud came out one year later. 

Affinity Photo V2 costs US$ 41 (without discount $70) so does  Designer and Publisher.

In 2012 Photoshop, Illustrator and Indesign would cost $1400-$2000 (depending on if you buy it as a package or individually)
Affinity V2 Suite costs US$ 100 (without discount $170)

Affinity's suite costs less than 2 months of rental of similar apps from the other company!
and for those rental apps, you have nothing to claim if you stop paying - even if you spend thousands of dollars over a few years. 

Are you guys really upset about the price? or are you upset that you didn't get any preferential treatment over the new users?
Would you be happy if it costed more to the new user? or do you think what you are getting from Affinity is not worth its price?
Think about it...

(I for myself was expecting some features that are missing in V2, and I am struggling how their new MSIX based installation works on Windows,  But weighing the overall situation, such as - regressive rental model from almost all creative software companies,  lack of decent professional apps with perpetual license and not to mention the price and how Affinity could manage to do a few things better than the rental apps developed by the market leader with practically unlimited resources!!
I see the Affinity apps as nothing less than a miracle for me and I would do whatever little I could to to support them and make their business model sustainable..)

I don't know why everyone think it is about the price????

Are you guys really upset about the price? or are you upset that you didn't get any preferential treatment over the new users?
Would you be happy if it costed more to the new user? or do you think what you are getting from Affinity is not worth its price?
Think about it...

It is about recognitions of customer loyalty esp when it comes to a small company. It is about understanding your customers and building a relationship and not acting like Adobe: "...Are you leaving? OK Good bye!" or Twitter!

So yes 89 quid might not be much but the image their portrait makes the loyal users think, why did I bother bashing the bible for them? The issue for me has never been the price but differentiating customer loyalty and relationship...

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17 minutes ago, Sam Neil said:

I don't know why everyone think it is about the price????

Because it is about the price. Would you be satisfied if you'd receive a "Certificate for Extraordinary Customer Loyalty" from Affinity? No. You want the discount, you want the money.

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1 minute ago, tudor said:

Because it is about the price. Would you be satisfied if you'd receive a "Certificate for Extraordinary Customer Loyalty" from Affinity? No. You want the discount, you want the money.

With you may be but not with me... You obviously have no idea about customer service/loyalty - Stick to your pixels & vectors...!

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5 minutes ago, tudor said:

Would you be satisfied if you'd receive a "Certificate for Extraordinary Customer Loyalty" from Affinity?

Can it be purchased for 8$ a month like on that tweeting platform or is it a genuine one for free?

Sketchbook (with Affinity Suite usage) | timurariman.com | gumroad.com/myclay
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Main SSD with 1TB | SSD 4TB | PCIe SSD 256GB (configured as Scratch disk) |

 

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