Jump to content
You must now use your email address to sign in [click for more info] ×

This is what’s wrong with the brush in affinity photo 2


ZufDraw

Recommended Posts

I chose not to copy my brushes over to the V2 just yet, just to test it with a clean slate I guess. My issue is about the quirks in the general brush stroke engine. The strokes in AP are nowhere near as smooth/consistent as PSD/Sketchbook/Clip Studio. This test brush shows the issues (exaggerated through the settings). Even the jagged lines on low zoom levels issue is still present. 

To summarise, there are 3 issues, some of which are years old (>5)

Inconsistent line behaviour as described in thread I linked in my first post. Check this test brush:

Inconsistend lines.afbrushes

Jagged lines when drawing fast lines on low zoom levels <50% (despite smoothing enabled):

1355938884_jaggedlineslowzoomlevels.png.7a7f1587f78cbed961ea89341e2ac418.png

Pixelated view at arbitrary zoom levels (109% in this screenshot)

266775638_pixelatedview(109).png.685342e866d10ca746dc35dffab6c9e8.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mmm...

 

image.png.07ab862b31b85ad4dbb10a96a8fe4d34.png

 

 

This is hard to test... the 0% Shape produces artifacts.

Moving it back to 100% and increasing the hardness a little bit produces a smooth result on my side... This is a 200% zoom

image.thumb.png.0efabfc436e47c660f5ef8ae404c013f.png

 

Also a suggestion which is still a bit "hidden" and could explain why this engine works in a different way from CSP/PS.

image.png.83829322b2732fe32b857fdc2eb8f893.png

 

Ramps work as multipliers, so if you create a 32px brush and set the ramp to the top right corner it will go from 0px to 64px.

The red circle is 64px, the first dot aside is done with full pressure and a ramp that ends in the middle.

The second black dot is the same 32px brush but with ramp ending end top right, and as you can see it is 64px wide.

My guess is that since shape is calculated in percentage from Pixel Size, it refers to 32px, so using "corner to corner" ramp together with shape ends in jagged lines. Not sure about the calculation... But with this insight I solved these sort of things.

Also with internal cycles (round and square brushes) you can use 1% spacing without problems and I strongly suggest to use this value in particular together with shape.

The only thing I still see is the "straight" starting point that occasionally happens.

About "straight" corners it could be an hardware/resources issue.. Which tablet are you using?

 

 

The white dog, making tools for artists, illustrators and doodlers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To show this non-linear relationship between Size, Shape and Pressure Ramp here you can see the preview of a brush with 0% Shape like your

Full Ramp

image.png.627a7644bd21c4c4d21e21c106ce1532.png

Half Ramp

image.png.668caf7c96ecc5d8950d0e2b4e2e390a.png

Slightly lower than 1/4 of the Ramp

image.png.4f1b1256339118f1e43796bf02f5362b.png

And this looks to me the expected result...

image.png.1962351a6bffc7ed6fed2e14aafde908.png

 

 

 

The white dog, making tools for artists, illustrators and doodlers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

`I appreciate your efforts to also dive into this issue. I have tested this with various tablets and mostly cintiq's (5 different types). Please don't focus on the test line this is just some odd settings to illustrate something I found that probably causes the issues I experience with the lining. In the previous thread you can read this is a confirmed issue and was logged. I hope it will be addressed at some time. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, and I'm pretty sure it is the non-linear behaviour of the ramp to cause the issue. Or at least playing with it you can find a "PS like" behaviour.

Shape, Size and Spacing seems to be considered as "unrelated" by AP. I also suspect Hardness has a role here...

This is about the preview weirdness.

The second part of your post shows a poligonal approximation in curves.

What I cannot reproduce is that issue.. This usually happens with difficoult communication between app and tablet drivers.

Or when you're short on memory/resources.

 

 

 

 

 

The white dog, making tools for artists, illustrators and doodlers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also again... Forgot to mention.

Spacing is a variable value and can't be controlled yet.

This value is calculated starting from the Size of the Round shape, so in order to have a stroke like the one you showed here

Screenshot 2021-03-31 at 11.09.44.png

 

you need to set Spacing equal to Shape percentage and as you can see below that dabs get closer (second stroke with 7 dabs)

image.png.4a7c133f86a20c76a8da4e0af5618ce1.png

Size Jitter ramp should be like this (for the reasons I've mentioned above)

image.png.e014503fb4abbda9dd1dddb68cb3238e.png

Anyway being Spacing a variable linked to Size, it is not possible at this stage to completely mimic the Sketchbook/PS behaviour. 

We should have a Spacing Jitter and set a constant ramp there, otherwise with light pressure values (so small size) dabs will always be close enough to blend together.

This is why head and tail of the stroke look "dense".

 

 

The white dog, making tools for artists, illustrators and doodlers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are right about the preview weirdness. Although I mention various issues in this thread they are actually different areas. 

The line behaviour which is due to non linear behaviour and such

The zoom issue which is the simplest and has been reported before and is an aliasing / preview issue

The 'polygonal approximation' issue. I wonder why you don't experience this. I also thought this was due to slow response and in some way it is. When I draw slow lines it doesn't happen, but when I draw quick lines (and only when zoomed in <50%) it does. No settings seem to take that away. The thing is however that:

1 I would expect smoothing to eradicate any form of jagged lines

2 other programs show no such issue

3 My collegue's setup shows the same (his laptop is from 2022, mine 2018). Oh and also on he iPad..

Have you tried it like this?: zoom out to 25%, draw some (really quick) circles or just wavy lines. I'm curious. Right now I'm on a 2018 MPB Catalina, cintiq 22hd. 

I have large drawings (>10.000 pixels wide) and often write in my drawings and these always end up with these jagged lines.

Anyway the inconsistent line is even important for me and has moved me away from affinity back to other programs. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also the spacing thing.. The examples you showed explain the difference in line hardness. The ends being harder than the body of the line. However there are also just weird inconsistencies in play that cause seemingly random gaps/buildups in the lines.

518932016_Screenshot2022-11-13at10_22_44.png.a66ede47bbf02ef5892ec900079750aa.png

969549471_Screenshot2022-11-13at10_29_51.png.10802330200f98a6f633ed3ac7d03958.png

Also, setting the curve as you suggested doesn't always eradicate the effect. I'm not sure where everything lies, only that it just feels wrong when drawing simple lines.

1942595775_Screenshot2022-11-13at10_25_27.png.fd18d410cafff215c1ff5bb8c80abbb1.png

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For sure there are still some glitches here and there, and about spacing, I somehow think there is a "by design" behaviour to increase responsiveness...

Reaching parameters' limits we could occasionally "uncover" these offstage solutions maybe?

Those skips make me think about rounding errors in calculations... But I’m making arbitrary assumptions... 😄

 

My MBP is a 2018 one too and I'm using a Cintiq27QHD (2015 model)

image.png.e5a10027dd507a73410b1ad7c36c2908.png

This is a quick screengrab using a 10000x6800px canvas.

 

As you can see... 25% zoom, very quick circular scribbles... Smooth on my side...

Internal cycle doesn't offer a great edge control, I'm showing you also a different way to obtain pin sharp edges using custom Wet Edges Ramp.

 

PS. In the very first part I'm hunting back and forth trying to remember where I put the dotted brush... 😅

 

The white dog, making tools for artists, illustrators and doodlers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is mine. And like I said, no other apps give this issue. I'll give this a try again later this week in the office.. I also have a 27QHD there, only not Monterey, but I can test pretty similar setup. I really hope there is are workarounds for these issues because I love the suite. 

[edit] and now I also tried again with your exact brush settings.. same issue... Let's see what the QHD brings to the table. After that the only thing that remains is Catalina vs Monterey but I cannot imagine that will make much of a difference. 

image.png.bb4e2efc2604b8a3442b77bb068ae549.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok found... You're making tiny circles on a 25% zoomed out 10k wide canvas.

This is not my personal way to deal with digital ink so it has been impossible for me to spot so far... I tend to zoom in for tiny details (no matter what APP I use).

 

image.thumb.png.4b43ce652b360c36f2475d40e965232e.png

 

Definitely related with both Cintiq/Affinity combo but also to zoom ratio and stroke size ( = movement your hand/pen on the tablet).

Being the 27QHD more precise (I guess) I have far less polygons as you can see. This is something I've been noticing since 2014... Affinity's precision seems to "disclose" input hardware's performance much more. When I moved from Wacom Intuos 4M > Cintiq13HD > 27QHD I've always found improvements whereas others (CSP, PS...)  stayed the same.

Also... Stabilisation does nothing in this scenario.

 

Photoshop for example works in the exactly opposite way... For Long strokes you desperately need to enable Smoothing in brush panel, otherwise you'll get polygons (no matter zoom/size) but small strokes are always fine. 

The white dog, making tools for artists, illustrators and doodlers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, ZufDraw said:

This is the most basic brush I use all the time in other apps. Hard round 8px with simple pressure sensitivity. Look at the stepped size increase. Do you have the same?

1190482015_Screenshot2022-11-15at09_56_12.png.ece2de8032928166e80263bb7f23100d.png

Yes but it is by design. 100% Hardness in AP is very close to Pixel Tool and makes almost impossible to avoid "steps" with such a tiny brush.

image.png.233bddc57ff560c8cc601c6893add38c.png

You need to set 98% to have a smoother transition, or deal with a custom WE ramp.

You could also use Hardness Jitter.

 

The white dog, making tools for artists, illustrators and doodlers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for the polygon lines I tested it with my 27QHD and on my iPad. Same issue. When zooming below 50% it starts to show these polygonal lines. We make large detailed line drawings which means we often draw on zoom levels below 50%. The tiny circles are just to isolate the issue but in our daily work we draw large landscapes with a lot of detail and often end up drawing below 50% zoom. Especially when drawing cirkels or ellipses this polygonal effect is annoying . I don't think this is a cintiq (/laptop i.e. 'hardware') issue because the same happens on the iPad. Also, since none of the other drawing apps (sketchbook, PSD, clip studio, krita, Rebelle, realistic, Corel paint and even AP itself with zoom levels >50%) show this behaviour for me there is no other conclusion than that this is an issue within affinity.

Btw I have no issues with polygons on long strokes in photoshop without smoothing, I'm not sure why you experience those.

Thanks for the insight on how hardness works, I just wondered, but never draw with 100% hard anyway, but I agree that is by design and with an easy workaround.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, ZufDraw said:

Btw I have no issues with polygons on long strokes in photoshop without smoothing, I'm not sure why you experience those.

We have same configuration and specs, less pronounced for sure but is there.

Photoshop needs smoothing on... 😉 

Short strokes

 

Long strokes

It has been there since the first introduction of the Smoothing check box in 4.0 or 5.0 (can't remember).

It something that could be fixed in AP I guess, anyway it is definitely linked with hardware/drivers combo too...  My Cintiq has 2x lpi of my my Intuos. Also Wacom drivers work in a very odd way... They use keystrokes, basically when you're drawing it is like typing on a keyboard... 😃

After a long term usage I can perceive different behaviour and need to work in a different way.

 

The white dog, making tools for artists, illustrators and doodlers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Version 1 on the IPAD draws the strokes in a buffer and paints later and without problems. Version 2 draws faster but I see the problems with quickly drawn round lines. They are not round in a way. Maybe there is a lag in the filling buffer if the fast drawing is to be achieved. I have an older slower IPAD 6. gen, with current IOS. The same paintbrush (Dynamische raue Tusche 01) and same A0 page format. Drawing with the Apple pencil 1. Changing nothing in the paintbrush settings in version 1 and 2.

Edited by SGS
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to add another possible factor - did you try to adjust blend gamma in blend options of your pixel layer to 1.0?

Mac mini M1 A2348 | Windows 10 - AMD Ryzen 9 5900x - 32 GB RAM - Nvidia GTX 1080

LG34WK950U-W, calibrated to DCI-P3 with LG Calibration Studio / Spider 5

iPad Air Gen 5 (2022) A2589

Special interest into procedural texture filter, edit alpha channel, RGB/16 and RGB/32 color formats, stacking, finding root causes for misbehaving files, finding creative solutions for unsolvable tasks, finding bugs in Apps.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Guidelines | We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.