non-destructive raw editing... how, exactly?

[spiderpod7d]

No Difference which why I am considering just staying with V1 because I have developed an consistent work flow.

I have asked this of Sarif but yet to hear back. Try it if you choose to create an embedded raw layer try using a filter that is a destructive filter (from Filter menu) or an add on like topaz AI noise reduction, rather than a live filter.  Try it, does it happen to you that after this is done you can no longer modify the raw layer because it has been rasterized?

Let me know please so I know I am not doing something wrong.

Thanks,

[Murfee]

Just now, jimh12345 said:

But how is that really any different from what we had before?  You could always reload the raw file and generate a new pixel layer to use as the base layer in Photo.   

 

Yes you could, but any adjustments made in the original file would need completely re creating in Develop, now any adjustments are retained so you can go back in and tweak if needed 

I also like that the raw file can be linked ... so long as I keep the original. My file sizes have reduced dramatically.... no more 4-5 GB files, that is a good thing for me.

I ran a few tests, no adjustment layers etc just a developed raw with an old file 

• Original raw 26mb
• Linked 839kb
• Pixel 137.9mb 
• Embedded 164.5mb

[spiderpod7d]

Thanks for your input 

I will wait for Sarif to get back

Thanks,

 

[Murfee]

6 minutes ago, spiderpod7d said:

I have asked this of Sarif but yet to hear back. Try it if you choose to create an embedded raw layer try using a filter that is a destructive filter (from Filter menu) or an add on like topaz AI noise reduction, rather than a live filter.  Try it, does it happen to you that after this is done you can no longer modify the raw layer because it has been rasterized?

I don't use any destructive filters, only live.

If I am going to use a a 3rd party plug in I duplicate the background and send that to the plug in. I have never done any destructive editing.

To answer your question yes if I do anything destructive the original raw gets rasterised, if you then go back to develop it is a pixel layer

[walt.farrell]

42 minutes ago, jimh12345 said:

But how is that really any different from what we had before? 

Before, if you selected the pixel layer that you got from developing your RAW file, it did not remember any of the settings for the adjustments you had made. Now, if you develop to a linked or embedded RAW layer, it does remember all your development settings, and you can continue tweaking them from where you left off previously. You really are back re-developing your RAW file.

[spiderpod7d]

HI Guys

Yes Murfee  that's exactly what I normally do so in V2 at least we have a raw layer embedded.

In light room all filters, adjustments were just overlays so nothing modified the actual raw layer regardless of their type.

I really like AP and have used it for 2 years after dropping Adobe stuff. I will just have to reconsider my workflow. Just brought it up because it struck me as odd behaviour and I thought like walt why even have it if overall it will behave as V1 depending on the processing

Anyway I am done with the subject based on both of your responses, it has told me all I need to know. Thanks for your input

[phoenixart]

7 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

For that screenshot, are you talking about the Output field not being selectable? I've seen something about that, too, but that didn't seem to be what was being discussed earlier in this topic. Sorry if I misunderstood. I don't remember what I saw, but I'll try to find it.

It does not give you a pixel layer, so it won't work with things that require a pixel layer. You would need to duplicate it and rasterize the duplicate when you have functions that require pixels. I hope that's mentioned in the Help, but I haven't looked at that yet.

Regarding the screenshot, I'm referring to this part of the YT video, which still shows the Output, though is greyed out, whereas on my end it's not showing up.

It's just a minor UI difference which doesn't seem to have any practical effect, but at first the discrepancies with the YT video confused me.

Maybe it's a difference between the Mac and PC version.

 

[walt.farrell]

5 minutes ago, phoenixart said:

Regarding the screenshot, I'm referring to this part of the YT video, which still shows the Output, though is greyed out, whereas on my end it's not showing up.

As I said before, the screenshot you posted before appears to be from the second (or a subsequent) entry into the Develop Persona.

• Output is not present then. It's only present in the first entry to the Develop Persona, and only for RAW images (not JPG, etc.). And it's only selectable if you've chosen to use the Serif Labs RAW engine in the Assistant Manager.
• Show All Layers is present on subsequent uses of the Persona, but not on the first one.

Can you post another screenshot from immediately after you Open a RAW file?

[rcsilber]

There does seem to be some confusion, somewhere, about non-destructive RAW editing. Walt has correctly stated that, in the raw develop assistant, one must choose Serif Labs as the RAW engine for non-destructive editing.

If you choose Apple and bring in a RAW file this is what you'll see in your toolbar:

If you've chosen Serif Labs you will see this in the top toolbar (where you can choose Linked or Embedded:

For simplicity of demonstration, once you click develop and go back to the Photo Persona, and what to edit the RAW file again, highlight the RAW file layer and with the Move tool selected your toolbar will look like this:

Now you can click Develop Image to return the embedded or linked file to the RAW editor. When editing is complete, click Develop in toolbar again. Note that the Output option is no longer editable:

 

I am readjusting my workflow to only use non-destructive layers above the RAW image file layer. If one must use a third party plugin, and stamp the file up to a new (destructive) layer, changes made to layers below will no longer affect the stamped layer.

Hope this is helpful... 😁

 

 

[phoenixart]

20 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

As I said before, the screenshot you posted before appears to be from the second (or a subsequent) entry into the Develop Persona.

• Output is not present then. It's only present in the first entry to the Develop Persona, and only for RAW images (not JPG, etc.). And it's only selectable if you've chosen to use the Serif Labs RAW engine in the Assistant Manager.
• Show All Layers is present on subsequent uses of the Persona, but not on the first one.

Can you post another screenshot from immediately after you Open a RAW file?

Thanks @walt.farrell

I think I haven't explained myself too well, sorry for the confusion.

What I wanted to say it's simply this: in the YT video you'll notice there's an Output item in the toolbar which is greyed out, and it appears after the raw has been imported, that is, the second time when James accesses develop persona.

I'm doing the same step: I'm importing a RAW file, in the Output I pick RAW Layer, and I'm ready to add new layers to my document. 

Now, when I open develop persona, I don't have the Output on the toolbar. As I said, it's a minor UI thing, as the option can't be changed at that point. But in James' demo, the Output is there, which is what confused me at first.

P.S. and to be blear, I'm using Serif Lab, which is actually the only option available on Windows.

[walt.farrell]

5 minutes ago, phoenixart said:

What I wanted to say it's simply this: in the YT video you'll notice there's an Output item in the toolbar which is greyed out, and it appears after the raw has been imported, that is, the second time when James accesses develop persona.

I'm doing the same step: I'm importing a RAW file, in the Output I pick RAW Layer, and I'm ready to add new layers to my document. 

Now, when I open develop persona, I don't have the Output on the toolbar. As I said, it's a minor UI thing, as the option can't be changed at that point. But in James' demo, the Output is there, which is what confused me at first.

Ah. Thanks for that clarification. I had misunderstood.

It does not show up for me, either, on the second trip into Develop. It is likely that James is on a Mac, and I'm on Windows, so I can't say what is happening. It could be that he was on a Build that provided that, or it could simply be a Mac vs Windows thing, as they are not identical.

We can see @rcsilber's screenshots are from a Mac, and they show the output field, so that may simply be a Mac vs Windows thing.

[phoenixart]

3 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

so that may simply be a Mac vs Windows thing.

Yep, that's what I thought. Just a minor UI difference. Only a bit confusing at first, I thought I was doing something wrong.

[Old Bruce]

8 hours ago, rcsilber said:

I am readjusting my workflow...

As am I. This method was not something I was expecting but it opens up a lot of very interesting possibilities for some of the work i do.

[jc4d]

Hello,

Let's say I have a exr file, when I click on develop persona (Photo V2) there is no dropdown menu to select any option to keep the raw editing non-destructive. I'm on windows and the only option in the raw engine is Serif Labs.

Am I missing something here?

[walt.farrell]

5 hours ago, jc4d said:

Hello,

Let's say I have a exr file, when I click on develop persona (Photo V2) there is no dropdown menu to select any option to keep the raw editing non-destructive. I'm on windows and the only option in the raw engine is Serif Labs.

Am I missing something here?

Are .exr files RAW files? I didn't think they were, and this function applies only to RAW files.

When you Open the file, do you end up in the Photo Persona or the Develop Persona?

[jc4d]

3 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Are .exr files RAW files? I didn't think they were, and this function applies only to RAW files.

When you Open the file, do you end up in the Photo Persona or the Develop Persona?

Afaik a exr is not a raw format, I end up in Photo.

It is funny, that we can use any image in Develop Persona, but we cannot keep it non-destructive. If this is a very confusing feature. 😭

[jimh12345]

Well... when I first saw "non-destructive raw editing" I got a little too excited:  I thought Serif had developed the Holy Grail of photo editing, the one app to rule them all.  Now I see that this is an incremental improvement that might be useful, if I work in a certain order, and stay aware of what operations aren't undoable (i.e. are still pixel-based). 

It comes down to things like the clone brush, as it always has.  That's where you cross the Great Divide in photo editing applications.   Capture One has a clone brush that's nondestructive - totally parametric - but it doesn't work very well, and that's probably why. 

 

[rcsilber]

1 minute ago, jimh12345 said:

Well... when I first saw "non-destructive raw editing" I got a little too excited:  I thought Serif had developed the Holy Grail of photo editing, the one app to rule them all.  Now I see that this is an incremental improvement that might be useful, if I work in a certain order, and stay aware of what operations aren't undoable (i.e. are still pixel-based). 

It comes down to things like the clone brush, as it always has.  That's where you cross the Great Divide in photo editing applications.   Capture One has a clone brush that's nondestructive - totally parametric - but it doesn't work very well, and that's probably why. 

 

Indeed, editing on an image pixel layer is destructive. However, if you create an empty pixel layer, you can clone and heal on that layer, which is non-destructive. This leaves your raw layer untouched, which can be re-developed if necessary. Win-win 😉.

[jimh12345]

2 minutes ago, rcsilber said:

Indeed, editing on an image pixel layer is destructive. However, if you create an empty pixel layer, you can clone and heal on that layer, which is non-destructive. This leaves your raw layer untouched, which can be re-developed if necessary. Win-win 😉.

But wouldn't the cloned pixels reside the new layer, not the 'base" layer generated by Develop?  If so they're not affected by future edits of the raw image .

[rcsilber]

2 minutes ago, jimh12345 said:

But wouldn't the cloned pixels reside the new layer, not the 'base" layer generated by Develop?  If so they're not affected by future edits of the raw image .

Yes; that is the intended option. I have tested this as I develop and new non-destructive workflow. I made several "repairs" on a blank layer with both the inpainting brush and clone tool, along with other live filters and adjustment layers. I came back the raw layer and tweaked some settings in the raw base layer, which had the intended consequence on the entire image. As long as one does not create a pixel image layer, i.e. stamping up all layers, you remain in a non-destructive state.

[rcsilber]

jimh12345, to clarify, my adjustments were minor. If major raw adjustments are made under a clone layer, it will show. Obviously, this is something to have in mind as work progresses. Clearly, my developing workflow is still underway... we have to be conscious of what we are doing and how the tools interact. 

[jimh12345]

2 hours ago, rcsilber said:

jimh12345, to clarify, my adjustments were minor. If major raw adjustments are made under a clone layer, it will show. Obviously, this is something to have in mind as work progresses. Clearly, my developing workflow is still underway... we have to be conscious of what we are doing and how the tools interact. 

Well obviously some things would be problematic.  For example, use  the clone tool to clean up dust spots in a sky, then goe back to Develop and tweak things just a little - and those spots could show up pretty bad.   Need to avoid those scenarios

With some readjustment in my thinking, this could turn out to be a good way to work, at least for many images.  The key would be to do as little with the raw image as is necessary.  The question I have is - when I hit "Develop" and switch to "Photo", how much dynamic range am I really losing?  Maybe it's essentially none - until I export a JPG of course.  

 

[rcsilber]

55 minutes ago, jimh12345 said:

Well obviously some things would be problematic.  For example, use  the clone tool to clean up dust spots in a sky, then goe back to Develop and tweak things just a little - and those spots could show up pretty bad.   Need to avoid those scenarios

With some readjustment in my thinking, this could turn out to be a good way to work, at least for many images.  The key would be to do as little with the raw image as is necessary.  The question I have is - when I hit "Develop" and switch to "Photo", how much dynamic range am I really losing?  Maybe it's essentially none - until I export a JPG of course.  

 

Not an expert on AP2 processes, my gut tells me no loss as to dynamic range. The raw file is either being embedded or linked, retaining all of its data, which is why it can be accessed again in Photo. 

I was accustomed, back in my photoshop days, of doing retouching first in my workflow. I'm going to test developing the raw, then in Photo, completing any further tonal or color adjustments, delaying retouching until I'm certain no further raw or tonal tweaks are necessary.

A new learning curve! 😊

[PeterDB]

@rcsilber New Pixel Layer

Just curious : and how do you create a new pixel layer in which you can clone for example and keep the possibility to go back to the Develop Persona and make further adjustments there, as you describe ? Thanks in advance.  

Would be glad to know.

 

 

[rcsilber]

10 minutes ago, PeterDB said:

@rcsilber New Pixel Layer

Just curious : and how do you create a new pixel layer in which you can clone for example and keep the possibility to go back to the Develop Persona and make further adjustments there, as you describe ? Thanks in advance.  

Would be glad to know.

 

 

Naturally, develop your raw either embedded or linked. In Photo, in the layers panel click on the Add Pixel Layer icon in the lower right. That creates a blank layer above your raw embedded layer. 

 

Be sure to select Current layer and below for your retouch tool: