No rewards for being an existing user...

[chakko007]

How is it entitled to think that something which is totally normal in most other software could be present in this software as well?

Anyway, I'm pretty tired of discussing, as, obviously, everything you say when you post about this topic is taken the wrong way, and you're an angry or annoyed troll, who is an entitled prick to users who can't discuss this topic in a proper and fair way. I said what I said, and Serif is surely aware that there are people who aren't that happy with a 60% price increase, and no upgrade options for existing users. What they do with it is their matter anyway.

I think what this really showed is the sad state of attitude on internet forums or social media in general. People calling you angry, while they're the angry ones, spreading hate and being abusive. If anything, it tells a lot about people posting here.

[tudor]

4 hours ago, deeds said:

Affinity Designer has not yet come close to matching the feature set of Adobe Illustrator from the 1990's

Illustrator didn’t offer support for transparency and drop shadows until version 9 in 2000. It was a rudimentary piece of software back then.

[tudor]

4 hours ago, deeds said:

And they weren't that buggy, for me.

I remember me, back in the day, I was pulling my hair out close to a deadline because CorelDraw 7 had a bug that corrupted a file I'd been working on for a week. The patch with the bug fix appeared a month later. Funny times.

[nickbatz]

5 hours ago, deeds said:

The 90's also featured critical reviews in magazines by experienced users with journalistic skills. Remember that?

This meant that it wasn't that easy to throw money into software that didn't work well as any news agent (remember these public libraries of old) would provide a constant stream of insight into the performance, stability and features in direct comparisons with rivals and prior versions, all taken seriously by writers considerate of reader opinion of them and their host publications due to the relationships with readers.

 

Granted, there were magazines with bought and paid for content thanks to the influence of advertising, but they weren't in the majority.

 

Try to find an objective youtube reviewer in this day and age...

 

I'll wait. 

 

I was a print magazine editor then and now edit an online magazine (SynthAndSoftware). Music and audio technology is a different audience, but we actually do run real reviews.

 

[Paul Martin]

On 11/9/2022 at 8:18 PM, Rogermcarey said:

Please tell me I'm wrong. I 've paid good money for the full Afffinity suite, way back. Now I'm being invited to buy Version 2 (so much better, so, by implication Version 1 not so good any more). But I'm being asked to pay the same price as first-time buyers! In the good old days, when apps were called software, existing users got a discount price for an upgrade. That was a logical approach to pricing, which encouraged existing users to move onwards and upwards, when they had less incentive to do that than first-time buyers.

I'm sorry Affinity can't find it in themselves to thank me for ditching CS whatever it was for their software. That I have previously bought their stuff counts, it seems for nothing. I am of no more interest to them than a new customers.

Thanks, guys. I'll stick with my existing versions. Even though they don't have a scanner interface. But then, ninety quid's worth of V2 doesn't either.

Y'know, I liked Affinity a lot. I recommended it to everyone I know.  Now, I feel like a mug.

Loyalty, guys, is a two-way street.

Yours,

Roger

There's a Bible story about labourers in the vineyard that you might glance at. I'm pretty chuffed at getting three good Xmas presents at a very reasonable price of £90 here in blighty. Your complaint is that your discount isn't greater than a new customer's. Sounds like that old sin of Envy to me.

[Jimo]

2 hours ago, chakko007 said:

How is it entitled to think that something which is totally normal in most other software could be present in this software as well?

It's simple - because most of that other software already costs a lot more money than what we pay for Affinity, even with a discounted upgrade. It seems unreasonable to expect the same from something that costs so little.

Any discounts other companies offer rarely, if ever, match the price of Affinity apps even at full price. So feeling hard done to and not being happy because Serif aren't offering more discount for exisiting customers on top of the staggering 40% discount they are already offering - and specifically complaining about it - does somewhat come across as 'entitled'.

Personally, as somebody who only turned freelance in recent years and now have to pay for my own software, I am thankful that the Affinity apps exist at the astonishingly low price point that they do, even before any discount. I can't think of anything else that truly matches them. And as much I too would love free updates for the rest of my life, I don't and have never expected it, or think that I deserve a special discount on upgrades for something that cost so little anyway comparitively to most things out there.

It's about recognising how good we've currently got it.

[deeds]

3 hours ago, nickbatz said:

I was a print magazine editor then and now edit an online magazine (SynthAndSoftware). Music and audio technology is a different audience, but we actually do run real reviews.

 

Music software (and hardware) is in a weird place, an absolute anomaly where despite not much significant improvement to the hosts (DAWs) the entire enterprise interest level in making music digitally and with hardware has bucked every major trend of decline and is instead absolutely thriving... until the parts shortages for hardware.

Things like CLAP for being developed and released by U-he and BItwig for all to benefit from multiple cores managed well ensure this will continue.

And the community around music software utilisation is incredible, despite there not being a single cohesive reason for it.

 

[deeds]

2 hours ago, Paul Martin said:

There's a Bible story about labourers in the vineyard that you might glance at. I'm pretty chuffed at getting three good Xmas presents at a very reasonable price of £90 here in blighty. Your complaint is that your discount isn't greater than a new customer's. Sounds like that old sin of Envy to me.

If you're going to use metaphorical language, at least use the appropriate relationships: users are much more akin to good neighbours in a digital village.

[deeds]

4 hours ago, tudor said:

Illustrator didn’t offer support for transparency and drop shadows until version 9 in 2000. It was a rudimentary piece of software back then.

Both of which had well known work arounds... the rendering of which was (and still is) better than anything in Affinity Designer's banding, noise and ajtifacting with transparency and effects, including drop shadow.

 

And then there's the performance of effects... which is atrocious, regardless of the hardware you throw at it.

[nickbatz]

1 hour ago, deeds said:

Music software (and hardware) is in a weird place, an absolute anomaly where despite not much significant improvement to the hosts (DAWs) the entire enterprise interest level in making music digitally and with hardware has bucked every major trend of decline and is instead absolutely thriving... until the parts shortages for hardware.

Things like CLAP for being developed and released by U-he and BItwig for all to benefit from multiple cores managed well ensure this will continue.

And the community around music software utilisation is incredible, despite there not being a single cohesive reason for it.

 

 

DAWs have been pretty amazing for years, but I guess it's true that there hasn't been much significant improvement to them - leaving aside that seemingly small things can be hugely significant if you use a program all the time! Probably the biggest change over the past few years is that the software and hardware (computers) have caught up with each other.

Affinity's programs aren't real-time, so that's less of a factor, but faster hardware certainly does help.

And yeah, hardware synths are definitely thriving, and the supply chain bottlenecks do seem to have eased. Synthplex, a synth show in Los Angeles a couple of weeks ago, seemed to be very well attended - both by manufacturers and regular humans.

[deeds]

2 minutes ago, nickbatz said:

 

DAWs have been pretty amazing for years, but I guess it's true that there hasn't been much significant improvement to them - leaving aside that seemingly small things can be hugely significant if you use a program all the time! Probably the biggest change over the past few years is that the software and hardware (computers) have caught up with each other.

Affinity's programs aren't real-time, so that's less of a factor, but faster hardware certainly does help.

And yeah, hardware synths are definitely thriving, and the supply chain bottlenecks do seem to have eased. Synthplex, a synth show in Los Angeles a couple of weeks ago, seemed to be very well attended - both by manufacturers and regular humans.

The difficulties of coding cross platform, realtime audio with both complex management of realtime plugins and realtime visual responsiveness are so much greater than that of programming offline, non-realtime visuals that the state of Affinity's software, in the context of things like Reaper (equivalent price, big incumbents dominating the market and yet they're doing great things) should be a source of embarrassment. 

 

btw when I first saw your username I immediately thought of Mr PWM Nick Batt, and had to check that that's not you

 

 

[nickbatz]

19 hours ago, deeds said:

The difficulties of coding cross platform, realtime audio with both complex management of realtime plugins and realtime visual responsiveness are so much greater than that of programming offline, non-realtime visuals that the state of Affinity's software, in the context of things like Reaper (equivalent price, big incumbents dominating the market and yet they're doing great things) should be a source of embarrassment. 

 

btw when I first saw your username I immediately thought of Mr PWM Nick Batt, and had to check that that's not you

 

 

Oh no, Nick Batt is not at all the same person, and I believe his video reviews are what you're talking about - not that he isn't good at it.

He sort of grumbled and barely suppressed a snarl when I accused him of stealing my name and initials (Edit: obviously my accusation wasn't serious).

I'm Batzdorf.

[MKJJ]

On 11/9/2022 at 9:27 PM, MarekGFX said:

Well, you can get a 40% discount right now, right? It is fair price for an upgrade. The only thing is that the discount is not privileged only to existing users but it is for everybody (including newcomers). I actually do not care if I am the only who gets the discount or everybody gets it  Or am I missing something?

Yes, I think you do miss something. I bought V1 a year ago, and now I would have to pay for the upgrade MORE than for the original license. I've never ever had to pay more for an upgrade in 30 years.

[brunoczech]

As much as I'd welcome some appreciation for existing users, I can hardly be mad at Serif.

How much did people think these upgrades would be? I believe the original price was around 60$ per app. And now we have all three apps for Mac, Windows AND iPad for 100$. That's 33$ per app for major upgrade. Come on!

Should I be jealous that new customers get the same 40% discount as me? Why? I myself want more users for Affinity community! The more people here and less people at Adobe the better. 😉

It's been known for years that free upgrades would only be available for all the versions numbered 1.x until version 2 comes out. And I think this is much better approach than the Adobe's way.
You can still be using V1 of all the apps, I guess forever (although without updates and much support I reckon).
But for this bargain price I won't hesitate a second to get the Universal Licence.
And I will keep using V2 with all the upgrades again until V3 comes out in a few years.
And then I will happily pay again for V3.
Seems fair to both customers and developers - they've put a lot of work to make all of these apps as brilliant as they are.

Big thanks to everyone at Serif! 👍🏻🤩🥳

[Tourmaline]

On 11/10/2022 at 4:54 PM, PaoloT said:

Luckily, Photoshop is still available for rent, and people who feel cheated by Serif can switch back again.

Paolo

 

Yup and now also need a subscription for Pantone again to work in Photoshop....

Creatives who understandably want to continue using the industry-standard color system are expected to pay a $15 monthly / $90 annual subscription for a Pantone license via the Adobe Pantone Connect plugin.

[Tourmaline]

On 11/10/2022 at 9:05 PM, deeds said:

I think you're too young to remember the old days.

 

I'm talking about the 90's. 

 

When software was expensive, but worth it because we'd not seen anything like it before.

 

 

 

 

Yeah and I remember people complaining about Adobe to not implement features customers wanted.

It's still the same.....

[Tony Pelosi]

I feel cheated. I bought a lifetime V.1 license.  Customer's fidelity should have some value to Serif, but I think they don't  care about it. Now If I pay for a V2 nothing is guaranteed that they'll come next year with a V3, and so on. As a lot of companies ( Movavi, for instance) they to value fidelity and long term relationship is a friendly policy.

I'm still waiting for Serif to fix importing pdf issues mess they didn't solve on Publisher V1.

It is like paying a new ice cream price in order to get just an extra chocolate coating

Hope they'll rethink what they're doing.

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Tony Pelosi

[chakko007]

On 11/11/2022 at 8:05 PM, Jimo said:

It's simple - because most of that other software already costs a lot more money than what we pay for Affinity, even with a discounted upgrade. It seems unreasonable to expect the same from something that costs so little.

Upgrade costs never have been linked to the cost of the software. I know very inexpensive software with upgrade prices to the higher version.

Anyway, it's pointless to discuss about that all day long. It is what it is, everyone can decide for himself what he/she/it does with his/her/its money, so, it's alright, no hard feelings.

[craftycurate]

I'm amazed at how many posts in this thread don't answer the original poster's question, but start banging the drum about how we should be grateful for cheap software, or stop whining, or that devs have to eat, or don't be so entitled yada yada. 

The original post was about why existing customers get the same deal as new ones. not about devs needing to eat (they/we do), or about what a bargain it is (and it is).

It makes good business sense to incentivise existing customers, even for a couple of weeks to bring in more sales.

As it is, Serif doesn't seem to have found a way, or sought a way to make upgrading from v1 attractive to many of us (I have all the v1 apps on desktop and iPad, because I wanted to support ongoing development of an Adobe alternative).

It seems odd from a purely business perspective to take the "don't upgrade if you don't want to" line. If I was Serif I would have dangled a carrot in front of my loyal v1 customers to push them towards a sale, to bring in more sales to help ongoing development, which is why many of us, even Adobe users like myself, supported v1.

This isn't about entitlement, just simple marketing psychology. As it is, I'll definitely be waiting for a sale, or v3, but Serif I genuinely do hope this strategy works for you, and that you are able to fund your ongoing work from v2 sales, because it's still in everyone's interests that you succeed, but I'll have to sit this one out unfortunately.

PS. I am happy to engage with any replies to this which don't fall into the categories outlined in the first paragraph above 😉

[deeds]

10 minutes ago, craftycurate said:

I'm amazed at how many posts in this thread don't answer the original poster's question, ...

All very well said. My sentiments, too. Though I'm not nearly as well equipped to articulate them in such a manner. Thank you!

[MKJJ]

23 minutes ago, craftycurate said:

I'm amazed at how many posts in this thread don't answer the original poster's question, but start banging the drum about how we should be grateful for cheap software, or stop whining, or that devs have to eat, or don't be so entitled yada yada.

I couldn't agree more.

13 minutes ago, deeds said:

This isn't about entitlement, just simple marketing psychology.

It's not just about buying the product. For new users, the 40% discount is a great opportunity. And it's just fine to create a little bit pressure. As a V1 user I don't like the "buy now before it's too late" policy.

[PaulEC]

On 11/13/2022 at 3:29 PM, Tony Pelosi said:

It is like paying a new ice cream price in order to get just an extra chocolate coating

Seems more like buying one ice cream, then asking for the next one, with chocolate coating, to be free! 😁

[debraspicher]

 

[Old Bruce]

I have three applications from three different companies which offer upgrades for owners of earlier versions. All three are not available through the Mac App Store. Only available through the company's websites. This could be a reason for the lack of a 'loyal customer' discount.

Having said that I really truly honestly don't care if Serif give me a 'loyal customer' upgrade discount or I have to pay full price. I will decide whether or not to upgrade based on features and price. Do I need the features? Can I afford it?

[walt.farrell]

51 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

This could be a reason for the lack of a 'loyal customer' discount.

Covered, as I read it, in Ash's post that was referenced recently above yours.