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I need to reopen this topic from a week ago because it's still giving me headaches.  I'm simply trying to add a document to another document - to a book actually.  The problem is that the pictures and their captions in the document I'm adding are not coming in correctly - even though I'm using "Float With Text" to position them properly in the documents I'm "exporting" from.  They come in completely disarranged from the way they were in their original document.

I've also, on thomaso's suggestion, tried copying the document and pasting it into the Main document.  The result is about the same.  

The only option I'm left with is adding text and objects one-by-one from one document into the other and going thru the cumbersome process of centering, spacing, etc for every single object again - in other words reconfiguring every document in the MAIN one to match the imports.  And that's going to be really hard in a 90 page book.  Plus, every time I need to add another document or chapter, it can mess up everything downline from it.

When you try to bring 'Document One' into the Main document, you probably will do so successfully.  But it leaves two pictures and their captions hanging down into the bottom margin and beyond.  I try to use the enter key to move that paragraph on down into the next page, but again it really jumbles the picture and caption objects, even though I've secured them correctly with the "Float With Text" option.

It occurred to me that maybe I have the text blocks configured incorrectly for Text Overflow, but I'm using just basic links that seems to be linking the text blocks correctly.

In the files I've attached, please try to add Document One to the Main doc, and then add Document two.

Thank you and please advise!

 

MAIN DOCUMENT.afpub Document ONE to be added.afpub Document TWO to be added.afpub

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Hi @BlueSailing I've had a tinker with this and I think I can put my finger on two problems that are bothering you.  First of all, I can bring both pages in (right click on a page in the Pages panel and select Add Pages from File…  That seems to work fine.

It's only when I try to change the text flow between the frames that things really get messed up.  But that was easy to bring back under control.  Using the text tool, click inside what was the first paragraph of one of the pages.  Then in in the Flow section of the Paragraph panel, set the menu beside Start: to On Next Page (as shown below).  That's a manual override that will put that paragraph  at the top of the next page and restore the layout you had in the single page files.  Don't use a series of carriage returns (the enter key) to do this.

2022-09-19_23-27-57.png.7cad4685bd154c252a50222f7dfce700.png

 

The other thing I spotted that I would do differently is how you're configuring the Float settings for each pinned image.  Looking at your earlier pages, you seem to be left and right aligning the photos on or close to the text frame margins (a mall offset on the right for the drop shadow?).  But you're floating/anchoring the images to the character to which they're pinned.  I would align to the columns, as shown below right.  This way, you can edit the text later on if required and not worry about your pinned images moving.  The screenshots below are from the Harry King image.  If you don't want the images flush on the margin, you could offset it slightly.  For the image of the Anita, you'd select Inside Right of Column.  Note that when you change the pinning rule, Publisher maintains the old position (ie it updates the Offset value), so you'd manually have to set the offset to zero (or whatever offset).

before / after images

Hopefully that will help you make some progress?

(NB I haven't seen "this topic from a week ago", so I don't know if anything I've said here repeats any of that post - or even contradicts any of it.)

—— Gary ——

Photo/Designer/Publisher: Affinity Store, v2.1.1 release

Mac mini (M1, 2020), 16GB/2TB, macOS Ventura 13.4.1(c) • MacBook Pro (Intel), macOS Ventura • Windows 10 via VMware Fusion • iOS: current release

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Additionally to @GaryLearnTech's hints:

• There is no need or use to start a second thread if you want to continue a topic, in particular if you refer to previous posts.
• I also can add the two pages of the 2 documents.
• First I deleted* the pages 9–19 which were linked in the text flow but empty. (*to reduce complexity and possible issues)

MAIN DOCUMENT_ot2.afpub

• Page 4 and 5 have a master page named as "Master Page" assigned that does not exist. But their nested layers themselves seem to be mistakenly marked by APub as master pages by the fading orange bar of typically master pages only. I recommend to fix this wrong master page states of this two pages. As in your other thread I still don't see the advantage for your intense you of master page objects, in particular if they confuse you.

603457401_missingmaster1.jpg.b51d897d5ef71694a249cf636000dbd6.jpg

• Since this master does not exist the "Clear Master" option is grayed-out.

1918603840_missingmaster2.jpg.f0411e7bdd5dc4420bee203d944d86ee.jpg

• This possibly leads to an issue with their background image: Though all instances of this image show the same contents and thus can be make linked to reduce file size (what I did here) this does not work for these two background images of the missing master on page 4 & 5. They don't react if the button "Make Linked" gets pressed, different to the other three instances of this image. Again, I recommend to fix this, e.g. by deleting these two layers and replace the background or apply one of the master pages.

954242139_embeddedimageofmissingmaster.thumb.jpg.e9fef33efd33fa8ceefdb819293cd48e.jpg

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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I'm not having a problem adding pages from file.  The problem is to make the text flow work once they are added.  You can see in the first attachment that Document One has been added properly.  But I need it to move it's content up to fill the blank space on Page 8.  I've reset the Pinning Alignments in Document One Gary as you suggested but I can't see that it's doing anything differently.  When I try to move the King info up (Attachment 2), there isn't enough room for all 4 pics, so I then place the cursor above the last 2 and try to use the Enter key to move them back down.  That just doesn't work. It jumbles the caption text-blocks and everything is just a mess. Should I try using a special character such as a paragraph break?980408437_AffinityCapture2.thumb.png.9605d99fc40e903cf8dadc6bfedc74da.png699213409_AffinityCapture.thumb.png.b7c3d525562c7bfc29c1a7ced3ecdd07.png

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1 hour ago, BlueSailing said:

That just doesn't work. It jumbles the caption text-blocks and everything is just a mess. Should I try using a special character such as a paragraph break?

A paragraph break creates just one empty line (+ its space before / after), whereas here you might want a Frame Break / a page Break.

From the perspective of the app and its object behaviour I would not say it doesn't work, jumbles or creates a mess. To me it appears to work as it should. What you see as a mess seems to be caused by the way the layout is arranged respectively the pinning is defined; the anchors appear to be placed rather randomly than useful.

So, if this two story frames get linked, the text flow of the added page may change accordingly to different conditions on another page which makes the text flow slightly different which influences text line starts & ends and thus moves the anchors together with the moving words to different positions within their line or paragraph. A chain of consequences. Additionally the pinning anchors of the image captions are placed at quite different places than those for the images they belong to, which can increase visual changes within the layout with a change of the text flow.

When you create a layout with many dependencies (linked text frames + pinned image left + pinned caption + pinned image right + pinned caption, while all pinned objects are meant to stay inside the text frame or not) then it is useful to set all anchors preferably at positions where they are less affected in an unwanted way if the text flow changes.

Also you could group an image + its caption so that you only need one pinning anchor and ensure that they stay together. However, this does not completely avoid such situations. The different pinning options should be used to ensure that the desired appearance is maintained when the text flow changes. The app does not create the layout visually (as we do as designers or see it as readers), but purely mathematically, with numerical values and coordinates. Nor does the app weight the layout elements differently than we do visually, unless we instruct the app to do so to prioritise certain aspects over others. For example, in the pinning options by "Preserve manual position" (which can mean that my set values are ignored) or "Keep within bounds" (which influences the "Preserve" option) or in the text flow options by "Keep ... together" etc.

If you find these options and value fields annoying, you can always make the layout even simpler and do without such features for automatisms. Also, many book layouts with small images along the text, prefer not to place the images within the text but in a separate column next to it. This makes it massively easier to keep the images at wanted positions when the text flow changes. If images + captions run exclusively in such a margin column then they may vary slightly vertically but never cause the impression of a mess as they almost must do if they should stay inside the text if their anchors possibly move around with a changing text flow.

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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thomaso I think to become skilled at these things would first require studying articles and videos for a few days and then experimenting for a few more days.  I just don't have that much time right now, as I need to have this book ready to publish in about a week. What you pointed out earlier about my conglomeration of Master Pages really got my attention.  I think what I would like to do is to invest the time necessary to clear the masters on all 90 pages, except the toc, and add a simple master to each one with only a header box, a page number character, and one master text box WHICH IS NOT LINKED to anything. That should relieve some problems I'm having with masters.  For example, you pointed out that on pages 4 and 5 there is no way to clear the masters.  That's true, and also I can't even delete those pages, even if I unlink them.

Unfortunately that would not solve the original problem of how to add objects into a document that is 90 pages long without disturbing the other objects that are downstream.  Do you have a suggestion for that?  I'm writing about 40 "mini-biographies" of people (call them mb) which I fit into different areas of the book. One thought I've had is to combine 2 or more mb's into one file if they fit together as such that there is no substantial space left at the end of the last mb.  I would NOT LINK them to pages before and after.  That way they would get pushed down as a group - which would probably work. The problem would be when I need to introduce another mb into the middle of a group (some are arranged alphabetically). I could easily do that but it might leave, say, half a page at the end of the group.  Back to square one.

I'm going to proceed with remaking all the masters and then add pages from file (mb groups) as described above.  Please let me know right away if you disagree and have a better suggestion.

Thank you so much for your always excellent help!

 

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, BlueSailing said:

I think what I would like to do is to invest the time necessary to clear the masters on all 90 pages, except the toc, and add a simple master to each one with only a header box, a page number character, and one master text box WHICH IS NOT LINKED to anything. That should relieve some problems I'm having with masters. 

As in your other thread before …

• I still don't understand why at all you place the story text frame on a master page. Especially since you want to add images + additional text frames on every page as pinned objects, means inside the main story text frame, you force all these individual objects to be a part of the master page layer of every document page – which makes edits more complex.

1713642449_reducedmasterlayer.jpg.56dd3ee08e125433cdc7fb4c8a3103f9.jpg

• I don't understand the need of different master pages, since they don't seem to vary in their layout.

• The background image, which occurs on every page, actually needs to exits in your document / Resource Manager with 1 instance only (on 1 basic Master page only). If you indeed need more master pages then simply apply this basic master (which then contains page number + background image, maybe chapter title) to other master pages. Actually all the single "MB" documents don't need to contain this background image at all, instead it can get auto-added once these pages become added to the main document where this background image is part of a basic master.

To me your current document appears too complex to let me describe my view on every step I would handle different. It is obvious that you have a different approach than me – which is quite normal in DTP layout processes. So I rather recommend to make experiences, to me experiments were always more useful than videos or tutorials (which go straight to the goal, deliberately ignoring possible side paths, issues, confusions).

When I began learning DTP I started with reading the reference manual only (which does not exist for Affinity, whose Help is limited in its info about every app item and its functions), then, after getting an idea about all available options (menus, tools, panels, panel menus & fields, windows & managers), I started to use the app. You seem to be taking a different approach, trying to combine as many available features as possible (templates + text flow + pinned images + pinned captions + effects + TOC + invisible text) without having full experience of the individual features to give you confidence. This is another possible way to learn; at its end your success will increase suddenly + massively.

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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Don't think I haven't experimented many times. I also used Indesign for 2 years and benefitted from their phone support.  I have to say though that Affinity's support is just as good. They've solved all my problems so far and in reasonable time.

I understand your frustration with the way I'm using Master pages, so I've created a doc with a Master which has only a Title text block and a Page Number text block.  You can see in the first image below that I've cleanly added all the text and images and captions that I need.  In the 2nd image I've applied a Background Image from a Masters which contained only the Background Image

This could solve the problem of adding pages from other files!  Still, it seems there still may be situations where an mb/story "box" spills over onto another page and will possibly have to be split into 2 text blocks. I'm happy to experiment with that.

One problem though is that the text boxes I add will have to be carefully aligned to the margins and that's going to be time consuming. Otherwise the margins of the pages will not match. That's why I was putting a full page text box on the main Master Page. What should I do about that? Keep a Master with a full page text box and just copy and paste the text box onto new pages?

Thanks for your patience! I think I'm pretty close to a solution and, like you said, a sudden increase in my ability to create these books!

File WITHOUT A MASTER BACKGROUND IMAGE.png

File WITH a (Background Image Only) MASTER APPLIED.png

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If you're not already doing it and just hadn’t commented, consider adding the margins (and any other guides you might want to use) to the same master page that has your page number.  Then fitting brand new text frames - or flowed text frames - should be much easier since your margins will be present and consistent on every page.  Hope this makes sense?

—— Gary ——

Photo/Designer/Publisher: Affinity Store, v2.1.1 release

Mac mini (M1, 2020), 16GB/2TB, macOS Ventura 13.4.1(c) • MacBook Pro (Intel), macOS Ventura • Windows 10 via VMware Fusion • iOS: current release

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1 hour ago, BlueSailing said:

One problem though is that the text boxes I add will have to be carefully aligned to the margins and that's going to be time consuming. Otherwise the margins of the pages will not match. That's why I was putting a full page text box on the main Master Page.

I can't follow. In my experience

1.) an auto-created text frame (shift-click on text overflow) has the same size & position as its 'parent' frame. No need to draw the frames for text flow manually.

2.) In case you want to draw a text frame manually: Make use of the margins on your pages + use the snapping feature / setting to make a manually drawn frame snap on the margin guides. No issue with positioning and sizing new frames in margin size.

Sorry, if I blamed you; no, it is obvious that you indeed have experienced various features. I am not frustrated by your workflow, I just can't think the same way as you do for your layout creation / workflows decisions. That's why I said different approaches are quite normal in DTP layout processes, with such a project it is rather seldom that several people work exactly the same way. What may sound frustrated was probably my disability to explain every step to turn the existing layout from your way to mine – whereas this can't be the goal, you rather should 'feel' and know your workflow, with or without the input of others, otherwise you might need to ask for every single step.

If the text flow + pinned objects appear too confusing because of their 'hopping' anchors then you could alternatively not use pinning but apply text wrap to the pictures + captions. Of course, then the images / captions will not flow together with the text but they also would not cause what feels like a mess.

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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I'm going to use both of your suggestions in the previous post and also try to get the hell away from pinning! Glad you mentioned that because it is a headache. I tried text wrapping the pics and captions but with no luck.  I'm going to try Grouping them and see how that works. 

But first I need to clean up this entire file even if it means redoing every page without masters. But before I go there, would you look at the attached file and see if you can determine why pages won't delete. That probably has something to do with my problems. Every time I delete a page it just "regenerates".  Even if I clear the masters on a page and then delete it, the original page just regenerates.  I can select multiple pages and delete them and they usually just regenerate.  I know this must have something to do with text flow. I actually cannot unlink the pages. If you can unlink them, please explain!

test file.afpub

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11 hours ago, BlueSailing said:

if you can determine why pages won't delete.

Unfortunately you did not tell what pages you can't delete. – I am able to delete all 16 Master pages, leaving one new master page only. Alternatively I can delete all 16 document pages, leaving only one new document page.

439880382_masterconfusion1.jpg.343374d363350d0a70fb863cb970e550.jpg

2131196215_masterconfusion2.thumb.jpg.c5069640bc4971915029170a257a0872.jpg

As mentioned, you obviously have a different concept or understanding of workflow in mind that I can not retrace respectively comprehend. I neither don't understand …
… why the story text frame is on a master page,
… why you work with pinned images (and separately pinned captions) in this kind of layout,
… how you choose the positions for pinning anchors,
… why you prefer individual page content become part of the master layers within each document page,
… why you create 16 master pages (that all look the same?) or
… why you don't link but embed the background image AND do this on every of the 16 masters (on TOC apparently even twice), instead of using 1 background mage only.

In my eyes it does not make sense if you try to modify your document in a way someone else might like it, you rather must find a workflow concept that works for you. There is not just one or one "correct" way for such a project. – Sorry, I give up at this point with further comments.

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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Please let me answer your previous comments and see if this clears some things up.  In order:

--why the story text frame is on a master page.  I thought the purpose of a master page is to place images, objects, page numbers, etc that you intend to use on every page.  This serves 2 purposes:

  1. You don't have to do all that work over and over again.  But I do see now your previous alternative with shift-click.
  2. Objects and text frames are placed in the exact position on every page. Again, I can make this work with shift-click.

--I pin images and captions because I frequently add content to pages above them. Adding that content moves all content on all subsequent pages down a degree and keeps the objects aligned. Otherwise a photo and it's caption would be misaligned.

-- I am not knowledgable in how to pin objects with anchors.  I just anchor to text which would seem to be appropriate.  If the text moves down, the object moves down an exact number of line.

-- I certainly don't prefer that page content become part of the master layer on each page.  Not clear how to configure otherwise.

-- I did not create 16 master pages! When I add pages from file, the software brings the Masters with it.  I've tried deleting those masters but have been a little sloppy as I've added many different files.  Moving forward, I will make all pages in all files have the same Masters.

-- Again, I thought it best to construct a Master page that has a certain background  That way all pages in the book will have the same background, that being the purpose of a Master Page.  I will try embedding the background image on every new page.  It just seems a little clunky.

I think my answers should be clear now.  I just want to reiterate my main purpose, which I may not have made completely clear from the start.  I have a book that is 90 pages long.  I need to add a few items in a few different places in the book.  All of my pages are linked for text overflow to help make that happen I would gladly redo things the way you recommend, but I can't get these pages to unlink.

Perhaps we should forget about my book for a moment.  Could you offer the proper way to build a book such that when several pages have been created all of which contain pictures and captions - and then add additional content in the middle of the book - the new content will not disarrange the existing order of photos and captions?

This is something I really need to know for all future books I may write.

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15 minutes ago, BlueSailing said:

-- Again, I thought it best to construct a Master page that has a certain background  That way all pages in the book will have the same background, that being the purpose of a Master Page.  I will try embedding the background image on every new page.  It just seems a little clunky.

Why embed? It would be sufficient if only 1 master contains this image linked, if more masters are required they can subscribe it from this basic master. Compare my previous posts, screenshots and the uploaded .afpub. In an efficient setup the Resource Manager lists all in 1 folder, containing all instances of this 1 linked file (and none for the documents pages).

20 minutes ago, BlueSailing said:

-- I pin images and captions because I frequently add content to pages above them. Adding that content moves all content on all subsequent pages down a degree and keeps the objects aligned. Otherwise a photo and it's caption would be misaligned.

That's true – but it also has consequences  for your specific layout, a disadvantage which made you start this thread at all, right?

29 minutes ago, BlueSailing said:

-- I certainly don't prefer that page content become part of the master layer on each page.  Not clear how to configure otherwise.

If the story text frame is not part of the master page then neither the story nor the pinned contents becomes part of the local master page layers. Currently, if you delete the master page "2022 Directory BASE MASTER" you also lose all content on every document page which has this master assigned. I personally would never want to work that way. (again, compare my previous posts, screenshots or the uploaded .afpub.)

31 minutes ago, BlueSailing said:

-- I did not create 16 master pages! When I add pages from file, the software brings the Masters with it. 

From the app's view: in fact you did, but just spread over several .afpub documents. Actually for content generating (writing text) of the various single chapters ('mb' / people) you would not need the master at all (neither background image nor page number). It can be sufficient to apply the basic master of your main document once those single page contents got added.

Another option (I mentioned already in your first thread) would be, not to use the "Add Pages from File" feature but simply copy/paste the contents of that 1-2 pages of each single document: By pasting content you would not transfer or create a master page or master page layers from the source into the target document.

– However, by creating single documents first you force yourself anyway to do certain layout steps twice, (regardless of pinning or not) since every single document starts at the top of a new page while you finally want their contents to continue on a previous page.

42 minutes ago, BlueSailing said:

Perhaps we should forget about my book for a moment.  Could you offer the proper way to build a book such that when several pages have been created all of which contain pictures and captions - and then add additional content in the middle of the book - the new content will not disarrange the existing order of photos and captions?

Also this was already done by mentioning the layout alternative with images + captions not placed inside the story text frame but aside in a separate margin column. This layout type is a lot less sensible on text or text flow changes in particular because text wrap is not involved at all, thus text and accompanying images + captions are a lot more independent and influencing each other. Anchors could work if set e.g. at the start of a paragraph or at related 'keywords' within a paragraph.

Whereas your decision to have up to 4 pinned objects · anchored at several positions within one paragraph · and arranged inside this paragraph · as floating objects · and text wrap MUST cause its according chain of consequences for the text flow. You still seem to not notice or understand that or why your personal, individual layout and workflow decisions do cause dependencies among objects. It can be useful to use any automatism in a layout process but it needs according treatment (which would be not required if that automatism would not be used). For instance your layout can behave like a charm when you place the whole story at once and then go through it page by page to add images and captions. Then even text corrections (typo errors, single sentences removed or added) don't necessarily have to influence a finished layout at all.

So again, it is up to you to develop a workflow concept which you are willing and able to handle. It is neither useful if someone delivers you a document which does not satisfy your layout or workflow desires nor is it useful if you modify in your current document just single, selected steps without considering + adjusting their possible consequences and dependencies for the entire workflow. Then there is simply no way to ensure that "new content will not disarrange the existing order of photos and captions".

If you want to work the way you currently do than go ahead, there is nothing 'wrong' about it! But if you use a certain workflow without caring for its particular needs then it may happen that you feel as"That just doesn't work. It jumbles ... and everything is just a mess.". All of this is normal for certain workflows and usually needs to be fixed manually as well.

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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One of the biggest problems you face is the Pictures jumping around as you add text earlier. Am I correct?

This is due to using the Pinning to a Character and not a Line. I would place the images so they are lining up with the top line of the First Paragraph. Aligned to the left or right of the Text Frame (inside). I would have the Pin in the first word of the the first line of the First Paragraph.

I am assuming that you want each bio to start on a new page. Set up a Paragraph style and base it on the Body style, change only the Flow option to have it start in the next frame or on the next page.

Now apply that to each first paragraphs in each bio. This in combination with the Pictures being pinned to the first word in the first line and aligned to the frame's left or right side will solve many of your problems.

The View > Studio > Pinning panel is your friend. Play with the options.

 

==============

Another major flaw is that you have several secondary Pictures, the ones with captions. These pictures should be grouped with the captions. Pin the group to the text, again following Left and/or Right side (inside) of the frame. As it stands now the captions are pinned somewhere in the text and Picture is pinned somewhere else in the text.

==============

Finally, for the love of all that is good and decent, please get rid of the        spaces and use the Paragraph's First line indent (this is in the Spacing section of the Text Styles) in the Body style to achieve an indent.

==============

61985978_ScreenShot2022-09-21at11_19_27AM.png.b9bba73728966ae5de41e9292a85a694.png

Play with the various offsets, start with 0.0

 

Mac Pro (Late 2013) Mac OS 12.7.4 
Affinity Designer 2.4.0 | Affinity Photo 2.4.0 | Affinity Publisher 2.4.0 | Beta versions as they appear.

I have never mastered color management, period, so I cannot help with that.

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You guys are definitely getting me there.  Bruce, I've just now grouped each pic with its' caption and then pinned to the frame per your example and it is indeed working like a charm!!!  This would have probably solved my problems from the start. However, thomaso has addressed the larger problem which is that the disarray in my content is due to the disarray in my workflow.  My Master Page conflagration is a train wreck - so thomaso  I am going to study everything you've sent and clean things up. I LOVE your advice on having separate Master Pages for background, page number, and other elements. And I so need to get all this garbage out of my master pages. Your statement, "Currently, if you delete the master page "2022 Directory BASE MASTER" you also lose all content on every document page" - that's a headache I've had for 2 weeks now!

thomaso, you've mentioned a couple of times that "some prefer not to place the images within the text but in a separate column next to it".  I'm not getting that. Do you mean another text column? which would contain only images and captions? If so, then I would slide the columns up and down to sync with the text that I wish to match? It doesn't seem to be as artistic as having the text wrapped around the images.

I have to get this book to the board that will approve it this week so I'm going to pull it together as best I can.  But next week thomaso, I'll have time to pour over everything you've said and start working on a new workflow concept per your advice. I know it's going to make everything a lot smoother and cut out a lot of stress and anxiety! thank you!

 

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