ffrm Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 (edited) Just an update, here's a great example of a modern AI based workflow Edited October 20, 2022 by ffrm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickbatz Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 Our podcast on the subject. Olivio Sarikas (great Affinity Photo YouTube tutorials) is very enthusiastic about Midjourney, Stable Diffusion, etc. The other three of us have differing opinions. It's a good discussion, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drstreit Posted November 8, 2022 Author Share Posted November 8, 2022 Here another grafics editor that integrates AI: https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/8/23447102/photoroom-app-magic-studio-ai-image-tool-generation Time is wasting… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelstuff Posted November 9, 2022 Share Posted November 9, 2022 I think you made a mistake labeling this topic. A Plugin SDK is perhaps urgently required, but an AI Picture Generator is more of a curiosity at the moment. nickbatz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drstreit Posted November 11, 2022 Author Share Posted November 11, 2022 On 11/9/2022 at 4:48 PM, pixelstuff said: I think you made a mistake labeling this topic. A Plugin SDK is perhaps urgently required, but an AI Picture Generator is more of a curiosity at the moment. I humbly disagree: You can train the models any style or face desired (Dreambooth), you can create everything imaginable within seconds, the quality is doubling every 4 weeks. Compare it with programming via notepad or Visual Studio: In both you can get results, but there is a reason nobody is doing notepad anymore… Maybe this is a read: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/11/midjourney-turns-heads-with-quality-leap-in-new-ai-image-generator-version/ „its almost too easy“, and „Considering the progress Midjourney has made over eight months of work, we wonder what next year's progress in image synthesis will bring.“ Do not make the mistake to look at the current stage, that is like the jokers that told everybody that electronic cameras will never make it, because the first generation was worse than mechanical DLSRs. The journey for cameras took 20 years - here we are talking software: It will not even take 20 more months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirk23 Posted November 13, 2022 Share Posted November 13, 2022 On 11/12/2022 at 12:57 AM, drstreit said: the quality is doubling every 4 weeks I probably use other AI but see no quality changes for years already. They are all same ridiculous as AI assistants in a bank. Still wait for something AI based would appear and make life of videogames industry artist easier . All I ever seen in UV unwrap, 3d modelling, texture creation are so stupid and so bad I stooped to even care . No hope at all. Even Photoshop AI selection that could be used theoretically to select some photography features to make proper roughness texture from same photo doesn't work AT ALL with Ai selection. No use whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickbatz Posted November 13, 2022 Share Posted November 13, 2022 On 11/11/2022 at 1:57 PM, drstreit said: Do not make the mistake to look at the current stage, that is like the jokers that told everybody that electronic cameras will never make it, because the first generation was worse than mechanical DLSRs. The journey for cameras took 20 years - here we are talking software: It will not even take 20 more months. It will get better, but I consider that irrelevant. You can come up with 50 billion analogies about other inventions, and they all collapse at the same point: human have a need for the arts (both creating and enjoying it). Having a machine create "art" is totally unclear on the concept, even if it can produce some interesting things at times. I have less utter disdain for the whole concept than I did at first, because there are creative uses for it (for example creating backgrounds). But it will never be art, no matter how hard you struggle to compare the process. Shorter version: I don't give a FF about it. No AI can do what I do, and it's not something I'll ever use - whether it's visual art, music, or anything else. Stun Damage 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwillt Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 You keep saying these tools have only been around about 4 weeks and they are progressing rapidly but, they have been working on these for years. They have only been available for weeks. We have been working on AI since the 1950's and it's only in recent years it has even become usable. Think about how many times you have to repeat a question to Siri, or Alexa and just give up and look up information for yourself. AI works in very narrow fields and has a long way to go to replace artists and designers in broad areas. Especially if you want to create something new and unique and not just smash stuff together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickbatz Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 2 minutes ago, Bigwillt said: AI works in very narrow fields and has a long way to go to replace artists and designers in broad areas. Especially if you want to create something new and unique and not just smash stuff together. I'm afraid you're underestimating the impact programs like Midjourney and Stable Diffusion are already having. But the second sentence of yours I quoted here - yes, in fact it's a tautology to say that unique art is always going to be unique! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirk23 Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 Does anyone know if there is an AI selecting tool that can select say ,mossy areas on rocks image , or rusty spots on something metal still having little color difference, or peeled paint layer on same colored another layer. Easy and quickly . That would be huge AI help. Or something that can remove lighting , shadows and keep just diffuse color? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelstuff Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 1 hour ago, kirk23 said: an AI selecting tool This is really where artificial intelligence can perhaps make a big difference. Object detection where as you move the mouse around it highlights objects it recognizes like people, animals, trees, sky, grass, houses, cars, fruit, vegetables, hamburgers, furniture, etc. Along with perhaps some fine tunning features for the human to help guide it like using the mouse wheel to make it more or less specific, for example if you've selected a human you can force it down to just the shirt, just the face, or just the hair. Alternatively maybe expand it out to multiple people while skipping the disconnected space between them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirk23 Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 11 minutes ago, pixelstuff said: This is really where artificial intelligence can perhaps make a big difference Yeah but currently it can't to do it even with the sky reliably based on Photoshop. Along a horizon line where colors are somehow earthly already , a dusty haze of some sort it doesn't work that good. People , cats are totally ok. And that's all. Anything I ever needed for my job . no chance. Resent new Photoshop version with better cloud AI option didn't make a slightest difference. I wish they would rather focus on their super outdated layer system, 32 bit support and slow like hell smart objects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drstreit Posted November 16, 2022 Author Share Posted November 16, 2022 To rail back the topic: I think we all agree that AI per definition cannot produce art - as art always needs an intention On the other hand - 99% of grafic design is not art, but producing nice stuff - here AI will make a huge difference Examples mentioned are real AI selections/replacements, being able to train your personal style for image variations etc All that above needs an integration into Serif's product line: An dthat was why I started that topic: I see open APIs in other products getting them the integration needed, but I hear SDKs/APIs not even on the roadmap of Serif - that concerns me greatly, as I personally think that the current AI models will become so powerful that they will replace a lot of traditional workflows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickbatz Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 9 hours ago, drstreit said: To rail back the topic: I think we all agree that AI per definition cannot produce art - as art always needs an intention Actually, I'd debate the semantics of that point (not that I disagree entirely). Apologies in advance for being so argumentative - this is something I've been thinking about a lot recently, and no doubt I'm far from alone in that! Anyway, text-to-picture certainly has an intention, and whether or not you call what it does art isn't really important (although I don't). To me the main issue is what I already wrote: we are humans with a deep need to create and enjoy art. AI has the potential to take a lot of that away. Or will it force real artists to come up with things that are beyond a machine? 9 hours ago, drstreit said: On the other hand - 99% of grafic design is not art, but producing nice stuff - here AI will make a huge difference Remember, programs like Midjourney rely on a database of images created by artists. 9 hours ago, drstreit said: Examples mentioned are real AI selections/replacements, being able to train your personal style for image variations etc All that above needs an integration into Serif's product line: An dthat was why I started that topic: I see open APIs in other products getting them the integration needed, but I hear SDKs/APIs not even on the roadmap of Serif - that concerns me greatly, as I personally think that the current AI models will become so powerful that they will replace a lot of traditional workflows. Machine learning is a totally different thing from AI "art." Whether Serif *needs* to incorporate it into the Affinity programs, who knows. Anyway, my hunch is that at lot of this will end up as... I'm not a programmer, but it'll be in libraries of routines that are part of the SDK. You're right that it's the next wave, though. New Macs even have dedicated neural engine cores in their current computers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drstreit Posted December 2, 2022 Author Share Posted December 2, 2022 Must read article: https://www.marktechpost.com/2022/11/29/artificial-intelligence-ai-researchers-at-uc-berkeley-propose-a-method-to-edit-images-from-human-instructions/ And again: The current models are developed less than 2 years, so 3xpect much more to come. And to Serif: Would it not be great to integrate someting like that? Its all open source, so expect that eceryth8ng that has an SDK will have it implemented by enthusiasts… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickbatz Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 2 hours ago, drstreit said: Must read article: https://www.marktechpost.com/2022/11/29/artificial-intelligence-ai-researchers-at-uc-berkeley-propose-a-method-to-edit-images-from-human-instructions/ And again: The current models are developed less than 2 years, so 3xpect much more to come. And to Serif: Would it not be great to integrate someting like that? Its all open source, so expect that eceryth8ng that has an SDK will have it implemented by enthusiasts… Utter revulsion aside, I just don't understand the point. We already have humans. Minor flaws aside, I think we're pretty remarkable. Stun Damage 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashf Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 Clip Studio just stopped the development after it got flamed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickbatz Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 Just now, ashf said: Clip Studio just stopped the development after it got flamed. So there is hope for humanity after all? thedzko 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debraspicher Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 8 minutes ago, nickbatz said: So there is hope for humanity after all? Well, they already pushed the envelope by introducing a fee to receive program updates for a version people already bought... they need less controversy not more Quote Microsoft Windows 10 Home (Build 19045) AMD Ryzen 7 5800X @ 3.8Ghz (-30 all core +200mhz PBO); Mobo: Asus X470 Prime Pro 32GB DDR4 (3600Mhz); EVGA NVIDIA GeForce GTX 3080 X3C Ultra 12GB Monitor 1 4K @ 125% due to a bug Monitor 2 4K @ 150% Monitor 3 (as needed) 1080p @ 100% WACOM Intuos4 Large; X-rite i1Display Pro; NIKON D5600 DSLR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickbatz Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, debraspicher said: Well, they already pushed the envelope by introducing a fee to receive program updates for a version people already bought... they need less controversy not more (I'm not up on Clip Studio, just snorting at AI "art.") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcr Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 The use of AI to create (as opposed to manipulate) images is intriguing, but until the rights issues are actually sorted out, it's more for hobbyists and personal use than commercial use. If I take a photo or draw an illustration or otherwise create an image, that is mine (unless it was a work for hire or something) to do with as I please. I can sell prints, mugs, t-shirts, etc. I can use it on a book cover or license it to a stock image site. Similarly, if I need an image of a cup of coffee, and cannot create it myself, I can hire someone to do it or license an image from a stock image site. In those cases, there would be some agreement covering what I can and cannot do with the image. For example, I may only need it to use in a magazine article or blog post to accompany an article about coffee drinking. If I want to sell mugs with the image, I will likely need a separate (and more expensive) license. Regardless, all those are things that can be worked out because the original artist holds the copyright and they can license it to me or a stock image site who in turn can license it to me and so on. But with AI generated art, at the moment, there is no clarity. If the AI has "studied" copyrighted images, is the result a derivative work? Who can copyright an AI generated image? Can it be protected by copyright? If so, if someone else generates a similar image to what you have already copyrighted, can you prevent them from using it? There are no answers right now which limits how you might want to use such an image. To accompany a blog post, maybe it's okay, but if you need to be able to own or otherwise control the art, it's not usable right now. And, if it's not commercially usable, Serif probably shouldn't waste time adding it because who knows which way the rights will be legally defined in the future. The future rights decisions may make it a feature few people will want to use. For the same reason, while there are some good reasons for an API or SDK to be available, this is not yet one of them, IMHO. Stun Damage 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickbatz Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 37 minutes ago, dcr said: The use of AI to create (as opposed to manipulate) images is intriguing, but until the rights issues are actually sorted out, Similarly, if I need an image of a cup of coffee, and cannot create it myself, I can hire someone to do it or license an image from a stock image site. The copyright issues will need sorting out, but to me the issue is using machines to create "art." Why do people have a need for artistic expression in the first place? But as to copyright... well, I have to give you credit for using coffee as an analogy rather than cars. Really, how are you going to calculate royalty payments when these services have every image on the Internet in their databases? With prescription drugs you can criticize the whole concept of copyrights in general, i.e. it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for sick people to finance drug development. But IP is quite different from prescription drugs (and coffee). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drstreit Posted December 2, 2022 Author Share Posted December 2, 2022 I honestly dont expect IP will be much of an issue soon: You can easily train a model to generate concepts with another model checking the result (GAN). That way, you create a model that will create photorealistic images of everything without being fed any real world images. More effort, but totally doable. Better concentrate on the fact that everybody WILL have access to such tools, and they WILL create and modify images without any technical skills needed. And hopefully these tools will also come from Serif. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickbatz Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 21 hours ago, drstreit said: Better concentrate on the fact that everybody WILL have access to such tools, and they WILL create and modify images without any technical skills needed. My answer is that no machine could possibly do what I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drstreit Posted March 22, 2023 Author Share Posted March 22, 2023 Adobe just announced that they will integrate AI generated content into all of their products as an standard tool: https://www.adobe.com/sensei/generative-ai/firefly.html So I repeat my plea here: Serif, move it and be fast about it. This "we have a timeline that is inflexible" is the Kodak way, please react to an industry trend that will be THE defining topic in content creation for the next years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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