loss of IPTC metadata

[jimh12345]

I found out that just opening and saving a JPG with AP results in loss of my IPTC metadata.  This is a deal-breaker for me - I sell via POD and all  my images have titles, descriptions and keywords in IPTC, which is read by POD sites on upload.  I can't even touch those images with AP if it's going to silently delete my metadata.

I'm confused, though, because I found a past thread indicating that this problem had been acknowledged and - maybe - fixed.

Have others seen this?  Is there any way to avoid it?

 

[walt.farrell]

Are you Opening the file from within Photo, or transferring it in some other way? What kind of file is it initially?

When you Export your JPG, do you choose to Include Metadata, or not?

Edited April 21, 2022 by walt.farrell
Fixed typo.

[jimh12345]

Opened a JPG via File/Open, then used Save.   Title and keywords were removed - the description remained.  Trying to debug this further, using ExifTool, is a tedious process but based on a few experiments I think what's happening - maybe - is that AP is taking any metadata that was in XMP and writing it over the IPTC.   

Some tools that claim to edit metadata actually only use XMP, some use IPTC, and some mix the two up.  In my case, some of my files have description fields in both places due to actions in the past.   So if AP just blindly copied XMP over IPTC, that might explain what's happening.   I might do some more experiments but like I said, it's tedious.   

I don't know what you mean by the reference to an "Etsy kind of file".

I didn't know there was an option to "include metadata" and I'll look for it, but sounds like that would just strip everything on a Save...?
 

 

[walt.farrell]

16 minutes ago, jimh12345 said:

I don't know what you mean by the reference to an "Etsy kind of file".

Sorry; that was an autocorrect typo. Should have been "What"; fixed now.

16 minutes ago, jimh12345 said:

Trying to debug this further, using ExifTool, is a tedious process but based on a few experiments I think what's happening - maybe - is that AP is taking any metadata that was in XMP and writing it over the IPTC.

I'm not sure how that works, off-hand. Can you supply a sample original image, and the .afphoto file if you're making any metadata changes, for us to look at?

Also, if any of the data is coming from an XMP sidecar file, please provide that too, if you give us the sample files.

[jimh12345]

No sidecar, no .afphoto.  As I recall, I just took one of my JPGs, opened it and saved it as a JPG, without modifying the metadata.

Later today I'll repeat this test with another file, and then send you the original file.


 

[jimh12345]

I just repeated my test, starting with a JPG with no metadata (XMP or IPTC).  

I used a reliable tool (PixiShot) to add title, description, copyright and keywords, and verified with ExifTool that those fields were then stored in IPTC.  

I opened that file with AP and looked at "file" Metadata - my description was there, but not my title, keywords or copyright. All the "IPTC" fields were empty as well.   Then I clicked "Save".

I opened the file again in ExifTool.  My IPTC description and copyright were still there; the title and keywords were gone.  The description had also been written to XMP, but not the title or keywords.

I can send you a file, but which version you want - original with no metadata,  after I add my IPTC, or after AP removes it? 

[walt.farrell]

The JPG version after you added the metadata, then a .afphoto Saved from it, please.

[jimh12345]

I didn't create an .aphoto and I didn't export. I just clicked 'save' and overwrote the original JPG.  

I'm not at home right now or I'd try those things.

[walt.farrell]

1 minute ago, jimh12345 said:

I didn't create an .aphoto and I didn't export. I just clicked 'save' and overwrote the original JPG.  

But to diagnose this, we will need a JPG to which you've added the metadata, and then you'll need to Open it in Photo and save it to .afphoto instead of overwriting the original. That will give us the info to diagnose the problem.

 

[jimh12345]

I started all over with a new JPG (created by Capture One).  I added IPTC title, description and keywords, and viewed them in ExifToolGUI.  I loaded that file in AP and saved as a .aphoto.  Then I tried exporting it, and viewing the exported file in ExifToolGUI.  In the exported jpg, my description was there in the IPTC, my keywords were not, and my title (ObjectName) had been replaced with the name of the original file ("with IPTC") minus the jpg extension.  Hard to imagine how this could get much stranger.

I'll try to attach all these files.

 

with IPTC.afphoto

[Old Bruce]

3 minutes ago, jimh12345 said:

I'll try to attach all these files.

You would have better luck by putting the JPEGs in a folder and zip compressing that folder and loading the zip file. I think the forum will strip out the data you want preserved.

[jimh12345]

Ok, here's a zip of all 4.

Capture One did not create the IPTC metadata.  I used PixiShot, a tool for that purpose, which I've been using for years. It writes IPTC correctly and the resulting files are read, and the IPTC parsed, by every microstock and POD site I've ever used, as well as SmugMug.  Please use ExifTool to verify this for yourself.

with IPTC.zip

[jimh12345]

I actually don't care if AP can even read the metadata. I just want it to leave that metadata alone.

Maybe ACDSee copies the IPTC to XMP, and that's where AP finds it.

ExifTool would tell the story.

 

 

[walt.farrell]

2 minutes ago, jimh12345 said:

I actually don't care if AP can even read the metadata. I just want it to leave that metadata alone.

If it can't read it, I'm not sure how it could maintain it when overwriting your file.

[jimh12345]

It appears there's no answer, then. Other than that I can't use AP.

[jimh12345]

I just opened that file with:

- Photoshop Elements

- Exposure X6

- Capture One

- Irfanview

They all read the IPTC data completely and correctly: title, description and keywords. And so will ACDSee and Xnview, which I don't have. Ditto for Fine Art America, SmugMug and other online services.   Even Wordpress reads it, if I upload it to my blog.

The obvious outlier here is AP.  Maybe AP's code makes an unjustified assumption about the order of IPTC tags, or something like that.     So I'm not motivated to start modifying my existing metadata in hopes AP will read it.    

 

 

 

[Tom Lachecki]

IPTC defines a set of metadata, which can be "encoded" in various ways - for example, in XMP, or in the older IIM format.

This is similar to EXIF, though that is more confusing because the term "EXIF" is used for both a set of metadata, and the EXIF format (similar to TIFF), but similarly you can find EXIF metadata encoded in XMP.

Affinity Photo can read metadata encoded inside EXIF and XMP blocks (and prefers to write it into new/exported files as XMP). We do also support IPTC, but unfortunately we currently do not support the IIM encoding format, so the app isn't recognising your metadata and that's why it gets lost. As Walt implied, though we don't "strip" anything from existing files, when you export a document to JPEG that is a whole new file that is built from scratch, so anything the app did not understand will not be recomposed into the new file.

I'll report back here if/when we add support for IIM, at which point the app will recognise the IPTC metadata in these images.

On 4/21/2022 at 10:31 PM, jimh12345 said:

Maybe ACDSee copies the IPTC to XMP, and that's where AP finds it.

That's highly likely; XMP is the more contemporaneous transport mechanism of choice.

If/when we add support for IIM, it is conceivable that this will only be for reading, and images exported from Affinity Photo will likewise transport IPTC metadata inside XMP.

[jimh12345]

Tom, thanks for the detailed reply.   

I think what you're saying is that the IPTC/IIM format is in some sense deprecated, however many photographers are heavily invested in it because our portfolios now go back many years, and we've submitted to stock sites in the past.  It may be that at some point there's a bullet we'll need to bite;  but we'd need some tool or batch operation to convert the metadata in hundreds of existing files.   I've done a bit of searching but haven't found such a tool. 

Reading the "older" format and writing a "newer" format might be fine - as long as the sites where I sell images will read the newer format.  Some of those sites are woefully out-of-date and receive only cursory updates.  I guess we'll find out, eventually.  

 

[R C-R]

2 hours ago, jimh12345 said:

I think what you're saying is that the IPTC/IIM format is in some sense deprecated...

FWIW, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPTC_Information_Interchange_Model suggests the IIM encoding format is still widely supported so hopefully AP will someday do that too.

[jimh12345]

2 hours ago, R C-R said:

FWIW, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPTC_Information_Interchange_Model suggests the IIM encoding format is still widely supported so hopefully AP will someday do that too.

I used to be a developer and we never liked having to add code to support old standards - that's not the best use of our time,  and it can be tough to get right.   But I'm pretty sure AP will hear from other photographers with  "legacy" IPTC.     If there were only some migration tool that would rewrite IPTC in the new format.   Are any of the big image-editing programs scriptable - or able to read some command-line parameters for "load" and "save"?   If so I could - with care - update all my files.  

[Lem3]

4 hours ago, jimh12345 said:

I used to be a developer and we never liked having to add code to support old standards - that's not the best use of our time,  and it can be tough to get right.   But I'm pretty sure AP will hear from other photographers with  "legacy" IPTC.     If there were only some migration tool that would rewrite IPTC in the new format.   Are any of the big image-editing programs scriptable - or able to read some command-line parameters for "load" and "save"?   If so I could - with care - update all my files.  

Do you "speak" php?  There are built-in functions to read and write IPTC data, although it's not clear which format(s) it requires.  An example of iptcparse() in action:

https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/php-iptcparse-function/

[ChasUK]

Whether the way most other photo software treates IPTC as "legacy" IPTC or not it is by far the most common way of handling this. It is absolutly essential. I am another who would like to use Affinity but with problems on IPTC it is a No Go. This should be realivly easy to incorporate as open source file handling for IPTC is available.

It's not just a few hundred million photos which use and have IPTC data in this format, most situations don't accept XMP as seperate files. The IIM format, if this is the problem it really needs to be supported. This is a problem going back many years and some of us keep wishing for a change in attitude so we can use Affinity.