Erratic behaviour of paragraph text styles

[rjav]

I'm about to finish a couple of documents in the old version before swapping over to the new, rather than change horses in mid-stream. While Dan's team works on the problem, my solution for the document which caused me to log this issue, was to start again and keep my fingers crossed. Hopefully it won't be in the new.

[rjav]

Hello thomaso

I started a new document including redefining the styles. I only had three -- body text, section headings, and captions -- and so it didn't a lot of work. But even then, the erratic behaviour occurred one or two times and I had to reset the type or leading sizes. 

 

[DigArt]

I’m updating a 28 page handbook from last year and and have run into the exact same problem that rjav experienced. Working in Publisher 1.10.8 for a couple of days, the text near the bottom of pg 11 shrunk down to 1.3 pt and text on the following pages was 89.3 pt (and headings were 133.3 pt). I could reapply the text style (to 10.7 pt) on page 11 but as soon as I moved to the flowed text on the next page and re-applied the style to the 89 pt text, the text on the previous page shrunk back down to 1.3 pt. I went back and forth trying to reapply the style but could never get the style to stay. Trying Edit>Defaults>Factory Reset did not correct the problem.

I tried downloading Publisher 2 and opening the original file (in the trial mode). It seemed to work OK, but after spending 2 hours redoing the updates it started exhibiting exactly the same erratic behavior at the same place: some type shrinks to 1.3 pt and type on the following page jumps up to 89pt.  Applying Edit>Defaults>Factory Reset to the text frame did not help.

Apparently rjav overcame the issue by just repeatedly reapplying the styles till the problem went away. I’ll try it although it hasn’t worked so far. I can’t send this to the printer as is and I’m up against the clock and out of options (unless I go back to InDesign).

FenmoreResdntHndbk-2023Pub2[pg22].pdf FenmoreResdntHndbk-2023Pub2[pg23].pdf

[Hangman]

Hi @DigArt and welcome to the forums,

Can I ask the resolution (dpi) of your Publisher file?

[DigArt]

40 minutes ago, Hangman said:

Hi @DigArt and welcome to the forums,

Can I ask the resolution (dpi) of your Publisher file?

In the Document Setup it says 600 dpi.

Edited August 8, 2023 by DigArt

[DigArt]

I MAY have solved the problem for now. I eliminated a few of the intermediate text frames on pg 11 and did what rjav did: go back and forth re-applying the styles. It cost me an hour or more of "busy work" but it seems to be behaving now. Is there a way to check the "scale factor" of a text frame you discussed earlier? And can I remove/reset it without removing all the spplied text styles?

[walt.farrell]

1 hour ago, DigArt said:

Is there a way to check the "scale factor" of a text frame you discussed earlier? And can I remove/reset it without removing all the applied text styles?

No, and, as far as I know, no.

[rjav]

I've been overseas and this is the first opportunity I've had to respond. DigArt's problem is exactly the same as I encountered, right down to the same point size of the erratic text. One other thing I did was drawn fresh frames -- I was suspicious of shapes I'd drawn with the Pen tool and converted to text frames.    

[Hangman]

Hi @rjav and @DigArt,

These two threads may be of interest...

and...

[rjav]

It's back -- I'm now using 2.2.1 and have just started revising a Publisher document which was originally converted from an InDesign document

I had to adjust some of the layouts so that the text finished where I wanted it, lining up with the bottom page margins

Then I needed to add more pages at the end of the document (page 32) and some of the text flowing onto the new page was reduced to 1.2 point (that's one point two)

Same old, same old --  drag the text frame handles and text flowing back onto the previous page is the correct size; when I push it into the added frame it is 1.2

It took a couple of attempts to final over-ride the incorrect font size

Then I added two pages between pages 8 and 9 and the same thing happened -- text flowing into the new frame was reduced to 1.2 pt

The attributes of the new text frame showed as "body text +" -- I couldn't just reapply "body text" but had to first set the style to "no style" and then "body text"

That seemed to fix the problem on the two new pages ... 

... but then, on the following pages, I find the text has changed to 83.3 pt !!!

Back at the end of the document, the pages with the correct text size (10 pt) now have the leading in some paragraphs changed to 1.2 pt

Manually changing the leading back to 12 pt doesn't correct the problem

Whatever the bug is, it's still in the code and it looks like I am going to have to start from scratch again with a new document

[Hangman]

Hi @rjav,

This sounds like a known bug (AFB-7732) and (AFB-7733) with regards to the way Publisher imports InDesign files...

Based on the figures you've quoted it suggests your Publisher document is 600 dpi... Take a look at the following two posts to see if they help. I would go back to the start, i.e, to the point before you add any new pages to your Publisher document and then follow the steps below...

Let us know how you get on and whether anything doesn't make sense...

[rjav]

Thank you, Hangman

I have gone back to my first Publisher version of the InDesign file (I am still keeping V1 on my system out of an abundance of caution), changed the Document DPI to 72 in Document Setup, and added my new pages -- so far, I am cautiously optimistic

However, I have not changed the Document DPI back to 300 (or 600) because I might still need to add a page or two as I make my revisions and I don't want to invite the erratic behaviour back

I feel I should complete the revisions and change the document DPI then, not swap back and forth as I go

My problem is that I don't understand the significance or impact of Document DPI and, so far, haven't been able to find an explanation in the articles I have found

In particular, I wonder if this setting has an irreversible effect on images -- ie, are they downsampled so that, when you change back to 300, the images retain the lower resolution

If an image is linked, the source retains its original resolution -- but what about embedded images: are they resampled to the Document DPI?

Or does Document DPI just determine the resolution if you print directly from the Publisher document?

(It shouldn't make any difference to what you see on screen because 72 is the monitor resolution)

Understanding this would be very reassuring

My normal workflow is to complete the design and then produce a PDF, at which point I set the required DPI (72 for previewing purposes to keep the file size small; 300 for the commercial printer; or 144 for distribution to people who might want to print hard copies on their own inkjet printers)

[Hangman]

12 hours ago, rjav said:

I have gone back to my first Publisher version of the InDesign file (I am still keeping V1 on my system out of an abundance of caution), changed the Document DPI to 72 in Document Setup, and added my new pages -- so far, I am cautiously optimistic

However, I have not changed the Document DPI back to 300 (or 600) because I might still need to add a page or two as I make my revisions and I don't want to invite the erratic behaviour back

I feel I should complete the revisions and change the document DPI then, not swap back and forth as I go

That is a sensible approach, I certainly wouldn't change the document dpi back to 300 or 600 dpi until you've completed everything, though it should be perfectly possible to change it to your final dpi and then if you later realise you still need to insert some additional pages, change it back to 72 dpi prior to doing so.

12 hours ago, rjav said:

My problem is that I don't understand the significance or impact of Document DPI and, so far, haven't been able to find an explanation in the articles I have found

In particular, I wonder if this setting has an irreversible effect on images -- ie, are they downsampled so that, when you change back to 300, the images retain the lower resolution

If an image is linked, the source retains its original resolution -- but what about embedded images: are they resampled to the Document DPI?

If the images are placed as Images, regardless of whether they are embedded or linked they will retain their Original and Placed DPI which can be seen in Resource Manager.

This Affinity Spotlight article may be a good one to read to get a better understanding of DPI...

https://affinityspotlight.com/article/understanding-dpi/

12 hours ago, rjav said:

My normal workflow is to complete the design and then produce a PDF, at which point I set the required DPI (72 for previewing purposes to keep the file size small; 300 for the commercial printer; or 144 for distribution to people who might want to print hard copies on their own inkjet printers)

That sounds like a pretty good workflow, for commercial print each print company will have its own guidelines with regards to how images should be prepared and at what dpi but for colour images 300 dpi is the generally accepted resolution.

Let us know if you run into any other problems when updating your document.

[rjav]

Hangman, thank you again for the reply and reassurance

I understand DPI (and PPI) -- I used to teach computer graphics at a printing trade school and I found resolution was the hardest thing to explain

But thinking about it has answered my basic question

In Document Setup, you specify the page dimensions in units of length; then, in specifying DPI, you are also defining that length in pixels

To satisfy myself on this point, I created a new A4 page at 72 DPI, drew a picture frame that was 3 inches (= 216 pixels) wide, and dropped in a bitmap image that was 1800 pixels wide and therefore appeared at 12% of its full size

I changed the Document DPI to 300 which made the 3 inch picture frame 900 pixels wide and the image was now 50% of its full size 

Which is why the discussion has been talking about "scaling factors"

How this affects text which is a vector element (postscript or TTF) is, presumably, at the heart of the bug

This is something buried deep in the code which I don't need to know about -- what I need to know is how to deal with the erratic behaviour which you have very helpfully explained, thank you

A final question -- is there a need to change the Document DPI back to 300 before exporting to a PDF for which you nominate the required Raster DPI (ie, 300)?

[StefanGold]

On 6/6/2022 at 5:22 PM, Dan C said:

I can confirm our team are also aware of 'scaling' issues with text, both when the extended 'rescaling' handle is used on text frames, and for certain IDML imported documents - this is logged with our team internally and sounds to be the issue you are encountering currently.

I'll be sure to 'bump' this issue with the team now for you & we hope to have a fix in a future version

This is still not fixed!

Will it be fixed anytime soon?

[Dan C]

These issues remain logged with our development team at this time - unfortunately I'm unable to provide any timescale estimates for when the behaviour will be fixed, however I will be sure to 'bump' these with the team once again for you now.

I hope this clears things up!

[rjav]

Thanks Dan

Following Hangman's advice, I changed my document resolution to 72 dpi and have just received the printed product. What i did not do was change the document resolution back to 300 dpi before exporting the printer's PDF. I remain curious about the real significance of document dpi. By setting it to 300, I can see if a bit-mapped image is too small -- ie, it is scaled to greater than 100%. But it should make no difference to text and vector objects which are scalable. Obviously, it is just good practice to set up a document at the intended output resolution. But does it make any difference when I export at 300 dpi?  

[Dan C]

On 12/3/2023 at 7:01 AM, rjav said:

But does it make any difference when I export at 300 dpi?  

As you've mentioned, the main difference you will notice is the quality of any images / rasterised objects in the file - secondly the file itself will likely be smaller in disk size when using a reduced DPI value, as the pixel images are rendered at a lower DPI and therefore contains less pixel information to be written to the exported file.

There are certain caveats, but we always suggest designing and exporting a document at the intended output/print DPI, where possible.

[Affinity Info Bot]

The issue "Flowing Story text is scaled unexpectedly after changing the documents DPI" (REF: AF-1288) has been fixed by the developers in internal build "2.5.0.2317".
This fix should soon be available as a customer beta and is planned for inclusion in the next customer release.
Customer beta builds are announced here and you can participate by following these instructions.
If you still experience this problem once you are using that build version (or later) please reply to this thread including @Affinity Info Bot to notify us.

[Affinity Info Bot]

The issue " Importing IDML and flowing text to new frame applies text scaling unexpectedly" (REF: AF-1342) has been fixed by the developers in internal build "2.5.0.2317".
This fix should soon be available as a customer beta and is planned for inclusion in the next customer release.
Customer beta builds are announced here and you can participate by following these instructions.
If you still experience this problem once you are using that build version (or later) please reply to this thread including @Affinity Info Bot to notify us.