Option to turn HSL color wheel to have red at the top (0deg)

[sheriffderek]

I care more about AD specifically, but the whole sweet uses the color wheel. So, I think the change would be across all of them.

The H in HSL - is a 360deg (well, and beyond in many cases) - spectrum of hue.

Most examples/figures show red at the top of the wheel.

Being able to learn the colors - is a major win over hex or rgb. You can't really learn those. However - you can could on 0deg or 360deg being "red" and then adjust the saturation and lightness from there. You can count on 180deg being a light blue. Over time, you can learn where the colors are - generally.

The color wheel in affinity - is a daily joy. We love it. It's the best. But - the red starts at 90deg. If we could set it to turn -90deg then it could match up with our mental model for the degrees. A checkbox in settings would be lovely.

 

[walt.farrell]

1 hour ago, sheriffderek said:

But - the red starts at 90deg.

Draw a horizontal line in the application. 

Then switch to the Move Tool and look at the R (Rotation) field in the Transform panel. You'll see it's at 0 degrees. Next, specify a rotation of -90. The line will be vertical.

Conclusion: Red is already at 0 degrees in the coordinate system used by the Affinity apps.

[sheriffderek]

10 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

Red is already at 0 degrees in the coordinate system used by the Affinity apps.

I can't see the coordinate system. I can only see the color wheel. Is there something I can do to clarify the request?

[NotMyFault]

Your request is absolute clear. 
Walt reply does not directly provide an answer to your (valid) request, it is just explaining that in Affinity all rotation angles use a starting 0 position counted as 90 degree in geography (compass). So it is a bit cross-talking by using relative angles with different point of origin. 

[NotMyFault]

15 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

Conclusion: Red is already at 0 degrees in the coordinate system used by the Affinity apps.

Do not agree to the proof. It is based on 

15 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

Draw a horizontal line in the application. 

Which is arbitrary, you could proof anything by starting e.g. with a vertical line, or use the opposite direction.

 

There might be better explanation for Affinity is actually counting „east“ instead of „north“ (compass)

• Rotational inputs e.g. in lighting filter show the base at east

[PaulEC]

15 hours ago, sheriffderek said:

then it could match up with our mental model for the degrees.

When you say "our" who are you referring to? All you have to do is look at the wheel and you can see the colours, where does a "mental model" come into it? It works perfectly well for me and I really can't see that it makes much difference at what angle the red is. (Although I am used to it being displayed in the way it is currently!) I can understand that you may be used to other colour wheels that are different, but if was changed to suit your preference, there would probably be other people who would prefer the red to be on the left or at the bottom!

(I've just done a "Google" for "colour wheels" and there is no consensus on which colour is at the top!)

If there are other people who are particularly bothered about where the red is on the colour wheel, maybe it would be worth sugesting that it could be rotated to suit each individual.

[Alfred]

1 hour ago, PaulEC said:

If there are other people who are particularly bothered about where the red is on the colour wheel, maybe it would be worth sugesting that it could be rotated to suit each individual.

Isn’t that essentially what the OP is asking for in the topic title?

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Option to turn HSL color wheel to have red at the top (0deg)

We would also need an option for the direction, of course, since the current mathematical (polar coordinates) approach goes the opposite way from the compass version.

[PaulEC]

3 minutes ago, Alfred said:

Isn’t that essentially what the OP is asking for in the topic title?

I read it as asking for a "checkbox" to set red at the top (as an alternative to where it is now), not for an option to set it at any angle. If it's worth changing at all, then it would make sense to allow for any preference of orientation. Of course, you are right about also needing an option to reverse the direction!

[Alfred]

36 minutes ago, PaulEC said:

I read it as asking for a "checkbox" to set red at the top (as an alternative to where it is now), not for an option to set it at any angle.

Agreed. I didn’t consider the possibility that anyone would want other configurations!

[sheriffderek]

Who knew it would be such a snappy topic! I might not be smart enough or emotionally intelligent to understand the joke / or specific version of attitude here. But I'm OK with that.

It would benefit me, my web designer/programmer colleagues, and my students - to have the wheel match up with what we perceive to be "the top." That's just my opinion. And I totally agree that when searching the web there are figures showing it at 0deg, 90deg, 310deg - and all over the place.

But my desire is clear enough. I'd like it at the top. Anyone who cares to hear me, can talk about it more. If they want to implement a single checkbox, 4 radio buttons, or a number field to choose the degree of choice: that'll be up to Serif.

https://www.w3.org/wiki/CSS/Properties/color/HSL

https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2021/07/hsl-colors-css/

Maybe I'm just relating it to a clock? Top is zero? When I'm skateboarding / I'm going 0deg straight.

If you think my idea is something that would hurt other people, or that there is a better way to think about it, or that you can explain some history of it - please do. I would love that. But saying "I don't care - it's fine" - is a waste of everyone's time. (yours too)

Maybe we just shouldn't use HSL at all: https://wildbit.com/blog/accessible-palette-stop-using-hsl-for-color-systems
 

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All you have to do is look at the wheel and you can see the colours

I'd be curious how it works for people who can not see the colours.
 

[AdamStanislav]

I have just tested it, and Affinity does it correctly according to standard mathematical convention, where 0° is at X=1, Y=0 of the coordinates of a unit circle (the circle centered at X=0, Y=0, with radius r = 1) and then the angles are increased counterclockwise (so 90° is at X=0, Y=1, that is to say on the top of the circle).

This is high school trigonometry.

[Old Bruce]

2 minutes ago, AdamStanislav said:

This is high school trigonometry.

Or grade school geometry.

[NotMyFault]

3 hours ago, AdamStanislav said:

I have just tested it, and Affinity does it correctly according to standard mathematical convention, where 0° is at X=1, Y=0 of the coordinates of a unit circle (the circle centered at X=0, Y=0, with radius r = 1) and then the angles are increased counterclockwise (so 90° is at X=0, Y=1, that is to say on the top of the circle).

This is high school trigonometry.

Except affinity swapped the y-axis which breaks your analogy immediately  

It is totally arbitrary and  subjective where to set the reference and direction (clockwise/ counter clockwise) depending on context. 

• school trigonometry 
• geography / navigation (GPS GLONAS air traffic)
• Clocks / time measurement 
• Astronomy
• Photo / Designer apps

 

There is no single truth.  Let the user decide what works best for him. 

[AdamStanislav]

36 minutes ago, NotMyFault said:

Let the user decide what works best for him.

By all means. I was simply responding to the request to place red on the top arguing that “we” are allegedly used to that.

As for the Y axis, hey Serif is in a country where they drive on the left side of the road. So they follow the SVG convention of Y growing downwards. 😛

[sheriffderek]

OK. So, for anyone with common sense - I'm sure the request is clear. For anyone who wants to fall on their sword about the not-so-perfect wording of my request, please do so.

[AdamStanislav]

On 3/31/2022 at 12:01 PM, AdamStanislav said:

I have just tested it, and Affinity does it correctly according to standard mathematical convention, where 0° is at X=1, Y=0 of the coordinates of a unit circle (the circle centered at X=0, Y=0, with radius r = 1) and then the angles are increased counterclockwise (so 90° is at X=0, Y=1, that is to say on the top of the circle).

This is high school trigonometry.

Well, since this was marked as confusing, let me elaborate. In trigonometry you can draw a circle of the radius = 1 with the center at the start of the Cartesian coordinates (i.e., [x,y] = [0,0]). Then if you draw any line from the [0,0] in any direction, it will cross through the circumference of the circle at the point of [x = cos α, y = sin α], where α is the angle between that line and the positive side of the x-coordinate.

Therefore, if α = 0°, then x = cos 0° = 1, y = sin 0° = 0; if α = 90°, then x = cos 90° = 0, y = sin 90° = 1, etc. That makes 0° at the rightmost point of the circle and 90° at the topmost point of the circle.

In other words, in trigonometry/geometry/mathematics the angles start at 0° on the right end and grow in the counterclockwise direction.

In computer graphics, it is common for the top left pixel of an image to be at [x,y] = [0,0] and the x-coordinate grows to the right, while the y-coordinate grows downwards. This is not universal (e.g. PostScript places the bottom left at [0,0]) but very common as it avoids using negative numbers in the y-coordinates. SVG does it that way, Windows BMP images do, and so do many other graphic files and applications. In that case, HSL may be shown with 0° on the right, but increasing angles clockwise instead of counterclockwise simply because of the way the y-coordinate is presented.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

[sheriffderek]

Thanks Adam. This is really useful. Why did you retire, if you wanted to continue to try and teach people math?

[AdamStanislav]

17 minutes ago, sheriffderek said:

Why did you retire, if you wanted to continue to try and teach people math?

Because of my failing physical health.

[sheriffderek]

Well, I'm glad you've found an outlet here. I just wish it wasn't drowning out my feature request. - for no good reason. I'm sure there are 30,000 Discord servers where you could go and correct people for fun.

[AdamStanislav]

Oh, I hope I am not drowning your request. I am all for letting the user configure the interface.

[NotMyFault]

10 hours ago, sheriffderek said:

Well, I'm glad you've found an outlet here. I just wish it wasn't drowning out my feature request. - for no good reason. I'm sure there are 30,000 Discord servers where you could go and correct people for fun.

This is a general source of tensions.

Users are able to raise feature requests. Other user might add comments to express sympathy or objections, or in many cases advise to older request covering the same topic, or explain that a feature is actually already available, or show workarounds getting the result in a different way probably with a bit more click work. Some reply’s are simple off topic, or just giving loosely related information without the intend to object.

There is no need to react on every reply and continue arguing. As long as there are supporting posts, i would start to ignore the neysayers at some point to avoid never ending discussion circling around the same repeated arguments.

Your request is clear, has found many supporters, and some mild critics. Everything is said, all can lean back and enjoy the weekend.

I fully support your request, and would love to get the „extended version“ where i could set the position of red to any angle with 1 or better 1/10 degree accuracy.

 

 

[Alfred]

1 hour ago, NotMyFault said:

to any angle with 1 or better 1/10 degree accuracy

Or even better, 1/60 degree accuracy for minute detail.