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View objects outside artboard.

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6 minutes ago, MEB said:

Hi Lumination,
Welcome to Affinity Forums :)
After importing the Ai file (with all object inside an artboard) and making the artboard smaller in Designer again go to menu View ▸ View Mode and untick Clip to Canvas to be able to see the objects placed/located in the pasteboard area.

I cannot. Is there another workaround? Please and thank you (especially for the super quick reply)!!

Screen Shot 2019-03-23 at 11.53.42 AM.png

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16 minutes ago, MEB said:

Hi Lumination,
I was editing my post while you replied. Pleas see my reply above. This can only be made for non-artboard based documents. If the document contains an artboard, delete it in Designer (not the contents) to be able to display the pasteboard area.

I see! Thank you muchly!

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On 3/23/2019 at 3:57 PM, MEB said:

Hi Lumination,
I was editing my post while you replied. Please see my reply above. This can only be made for non-artboard based documents. If the document contains an artboard, delete it in Designer (not the contents) to be able to display the pasteboard area.

Ok, @MEB, I'm tagging @Patrick Connor as well and I'll ask you for a little help here, or, if this feature I'm asking for hasn't been implemented or isn't on the roadmap already, a little compromise on your part, please. It should be easy to code and require either an extra button on the layers panel, or an extra checkbox in the settings window.

When testing this use case again on the latest Designer beta, I've just realised that if we move, in the layers panel, the objects from any of the artboards into a layer above all of the latter, we actually get a “universal layer” of sorts and can export each adjacent artboard and have any objects that span/straddle them display in their entirety both while editing – even with the pre-selected and grayed-out “Clip to Canvas” setting, yes – and on the exported .PDF files. This is indeed the behaviour I intended, and would save me all of those shenanigans with slices I was talking about before. It would indeed allow me to work with AD in the same work I do with Ai and did with Freehand. Maybe you added this from Publisher? Maybe I was just a bit of an idiot and didn't realise it was already possible-ish?

The thing is: yes, it's all nice and good to see that things are progressing in the right direction, but this isn't a workable option yet as there is no way of preventing Designer from automatically moving objects out of one of those “universal layers” and into an artboard layer whenever moving an object over the artboard it was already over. It immediately gets sucked into that artboard the moment I click and drag it, thus rendering any actual “unversal layer” work, like multi-page technical diagrams, impossible (maybe I could use rectangles as faux artboards while working, and just add real ones when exporting, but I'm betting AD would start sucking objects into them left and right and screw me over anyway; edit: I've just checked, and that's precisely what AD does, so perhaps that toggle I'm proposing could also apply to newly created artboards, now that I think of it). “Frustrating”, as another user put it, doesn't even begin to describe how this feels. “Infuriating” is probably more appropriate of a term. Funnily enough, if I nudge an object with the arrow keys, it won't do that, so there's already some inconsistency there.

Please, please, PLEASE, PLEASE give us a mode where we have full control over which layers/artboards our objects go to and stay on (you know, like, if we select a layer and start creating new objects, they automatically go there and stay there no matter what until we click on another layer in the Layers panel or on an object from a different layer? Even if we already have several artboards strewn around? That would also allow us to have artboard-specific objects, kind of like ersatz “master pages/watermarks” which would move along with them, while having content floating above them, which would make AD great for technical work, like technical drawing for dummies, something which Corel and even Ai are also decent for). I've tried everything to prevent that behaviour: locking the artboard layers, hiding them, disabling the “Edit all layers” option, nothing works. AD keeps doing what it thinks is best for me, even though I do not want it to. For me, AD will be useless for many projects, and all it takes to change that is for you to add an “Automatically move objects from external/universal layers into artboards” toggle (yeah, I'm not too sure on the naming convention for those layers, but you should come up with a name for them, as they are indeed special; only incomplete and useless at the moment). Please do it. It will be an insta-fix for all the issues I and other users mentioned. And if the default is the option most of your user base is used to anyway, there will be virtually no disruption to their workflow.

Win-win situation, am I right? If you decided and were able to implement that “select object when intersects [sic] with selection marquee” (yes, you should fix that typo, by the way) to accommodate both Corel and Adobe users – an option which is nice but not critical, as muscle-memory is easily retrainable, whereas entire workflows may be either possible or not depending on more low-level UX issues like this one –, you should be able to throw us soon-to-be-former Ai users a little bone, yes? Call it “manual mode”, if you will. A mode in which AD doesn't decide anything for you and gives you full control, kind of like that magical “Allow document pages to shuffle” option in InDesign which puts everything into a “manual mode” of sorts but does allow you to produce extra complex documents that wouldn't be possible otherwise. Will it be harder to use for some users? Yes. Will it allow other users to actually work with your software? Also yes.

And before you say it, I do know you could probably use the Designer persona in Affinity Publisher to overcome this limitation, but I feel that's a bit overkill and extremely unfair for people who may not have a need for that app otherwise (I will buy it anyway, but I should stand up for those users as well). Also, it wouldn't allow you do easily make manual booklet impositions or more complex documents, as APub can't even do multiple-page spreads yet and will never allow you to move pages on two axes, I'm guessing. Do you want students to be able use Designer for prototypes done with their large format inkjet printers, or not? Yes, I know what I'm talking about sounds a bit bizarre, but we did make such experimental projects, with objects spanning multiple spreads, at both my BFA and MA, to learn the ins and outs of imposition (we basically did the pages in InDesign and reimported them as .PDFs into Ai and did the whole thing by hand) and print production in general. Publisher can definitely handle objects spanning multiple artboards (and universal layers, by default), and Designer would also be technically able to do so (well, it already is, as long as you don't touch it with your mouse/trackpad :P ), if it wasn't for that choice you made for us and which we can't toggle.

I know I'm probably not being too clear here, as we're all on the same timezone and it's almost 3 AM now, but if you want I can provide you with some narrated video screen captures of both Ai and AD so I can explain you the interaction model I'm aiming at. I REALLY want to use AD for all of my work, and I REALLY want to unreservedly rally behind it and recommend it to my students. If you want me to do that, PM me or something, because now that I finally turned in my dissertation I have much more free time to help you in earnest. Also, speaking of teaching, as soon as I [hopefully and finally!!] graduate in a few weeks I'll be sending CVs and portfolios to all design schools in Lisbon for teaching positions, so maybe come September you'll have yet more platforms where your wares will be promoted.

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On 3/23/2019 at 3:57 PM, MEB said:

Hi Lumination,
I was editing my post while you replied. Please see my reply above. This can only be made for non-artboard based documents. If the document contains an artboard, delete it in Designer (not the contents) to be able to display the pasteboard area.

[Edit: for your convenience, I created a new, specific and more focused request, as the original one from this current thread is partially solved already. I'm leaving this comment here for archival purposes, but if you want to save yourself the trouble of reading all this, you're better off checking the new one.]

Ok, @MEB, I'm tagging @Patrick Connor as well and I'll ask you for a little help here, or, if this feature I'm asking for hasn't been implemented already, a little compromise on your part, please. It should be easy to code and require either an extra button on the layers panel, or an extra checkbox in the settings window.

I've just realised that if we bring the objects outside of the artboards and into a layer above all of them, we actually get a “universal layer” and can export each artboard and have objects that span them display both while editing, with the pre-selected and grayed-out “Clip to Canvas” setting, and on the exported files. This is indeed the behaviour I intended on, and will save me all of those shenanigans with slices I was talking about before.

The thing is: there is no way of preventing Designer from moving objects out of one of those universal layers and into an artboard layer whenever moving an object over the artboard it was already over. It immediately gets sucked into that artboard the moment I click and drag it. Funnily enough, if I nudge it with the arrow keys, it won't do that, so there's already some inconsistency there.

Please, please, PLEASE, PLEASE give us a mode where we have full control over which layers our objects go to and stay in. I've tried everything: locking the artboard layers, hiding them, disabling the “Edit all layers” option, nothing works. AD keeps doing what it thinks is best for me, even though I do not want it to. For me, AD will be useless for many projects, and all it takes is for you to add a “Automatically move objects from external layers into artboards” toggle. Please do it. It will be an insta-fix for all the issues I mentioned.

I know I'm not being too clear here, but if you want I can provide you with some narrated video screen captures of both Ai and AD so I can explain you the interaction model I'm aiming at. I REALLY want to use AD for all of my work, and I REALLY want to unreservedly rally behind it and recommend it to my students. If you want me to do that, PM me or something, because now that I finally turned in my dissertation I have much more free time to help you right now.

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On 16/12/2015 at 23:14, MattP said:

... e qui andiamo, solo una breve anteprima di ciò di cui sto parlando. Sto semplicemente premendo una scorciatoia da tastiera per attivare / disattivare il ritaglio del documento. Lo screen recorder fa sembrare più lento di quanto non sia ... :(

 

(Inoltre, ho dovuto ridimensionarlo per essere super-piccolo in modo che rientri nel limite massimo di dimensioni del file sul forum - sospiro!)

 

toggle.mov

how do you do this thing ??

I believe that when you press hide hide bleed (shift + tab)
you should also be able to hide all objects outside of the artboards and then hide the objects on the assembly table. Currently it does not.

I believe that by default you should have set the artboard and the possibility of setting a bleed that can currently only be set later and not when a page is created.

then you should be able to enter the number of tables (of the same format) that you can already create on file / new

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On 3/23/2019 at 8:57 AM, MEB said:

Hi Lumination,
I was editing my post while you replied. Please see my reply above. This can only be made for non-artboard based documents. If the document contains an artboard, delete it in Designer (not the contents) to be able to display the pasteboard area.

Please make this mode available for artboards as well.

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Hi ashf,
The above reply was to help a user work around a few Ai file import issues. Out of its context it may be mis-interpreted. In Affinity Designer objects placed outside artboards (in the pasteboard area) are always visible unless they cross the boundaries of the artboard itself - in that case the part that lays outside the artboard becomes invisible - this is by design.

Can you attach a sample file (you can delete the unrelated objects) which is giving you trouble so we can see what's going on?

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On 7/8/2019 at 11:52 AM, MEB said:

Hi ashf,
The above reply was to help a user work around a few Ai file import issues. Out of its context it may be mis-interpreted. In Affinity Designer objects placed outside artboards (in the pasteboard area) are always visible unless they cross the boundaries of the artboard itself - in that case the part that lays outside the artboard becomes invisible - this is by design.

Can you attach a sample file (you can delete the unrelated objects) which is giving you trouble so we can see what's going on?

“By design” (emphasis mine). And herein lies the issue with some of Serif's decisions: bad UX design and the absence of choice for the user in order to fix/work around them.

If your users are actively contesting features that work the way they do “by design”, rather than just because of bugs, something is seriously wrong with your product and your vision, regardless of how good your sales figures are or how happy some niches (or even the majority!) of your users feel about it, and especially considering that adding those choices wouldn't hurt them in the least either way. A badly designed product can be way more frustrating and less dependable than a well designed, albeit buggy one.

Yeah, I'm bumping this thread here a bit as well, sorry. But just like the “advanced selection” one (probably even more so), it must be kept alive, as other posters said before. You already have our money and us as users, so… deal with it and fix it.

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On 7/8/2019 at 7:30 AM, ashf said:

Please make this mode available for artboards as well.

Keep fighting for your needs as a designer, my fellow user (I would've given you a “thank you” react, but I've already spent mine for the day, by the way).

Serif's stance on the sacredness of their current document model is untenable, and people will keep finding the lack of this basic and obvious option dumbfounding, but the only way the developers will cave in is if enough users do ask for it, and do so persistently and vehemently enough.

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6 minutes ago, JGD said:

And herein lies the issue with some of Serif's decisions: bad UX design and the absence of choice for the user in order to fix/work around them.

Absence of choice is the real issue here, isn’t it? Just as objects which are partially on the canvas are clipped to the canvas by default but can be unclipped, objects which are partially on artboards may be clipped to those artboards by default but it should be possible for the user to unclip them if desired.


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47 minutes ago, Alfred said:

Absence of choice is the real issue here, isn’t it? Just as objects which are partially on the canvas are clipped to the canvas by default but can be unclipped, objects which are partially on artboards may be clipped to those artboards by default but it should be possible for the user to unclip them if desired.

Precisely. I'd say there are some other lingering issues with Serif right now which are completely off-topic (and which people who've seen the other threads I'm active in already know about), but this has got to be the real kicker.

I know some of them would require a deep rethought of the codebase and UX model (like the way Artboards are top-most containers instead of bottom-most “slices” of sorts, a dead horse that I basically ground into such a fine paste here in the forums it's not even funny anymore), or at least some months of testing entirely new features (just check the infamous, 5-year-old and 12-page-long “selection…” thread I mentioned), but many of these irksome limitations could actually be fixed right now by adding a checkbox/menu item or two here and there. This clipping mess being one.

Users keep demonstrating, with screenshots and whatnot, just how broken this model can become, with objects becoming invisible altogether and, thus, exceedingly hard to select – other than directly from the Layers panel or by switching to outlines view, that is –, but Serif devs just refuse to listen or admit the model is flawed in too many instances to be acceptable as the default, let alone as the only choice.

Please, PLEASE, PLEASE: make clipping in Designer behave like InDesign's “preview” mode. You know, the one that you can trigger by pressing “W”, which automatically clips the pasteboard and hides the guidelines? That is the only sensible way to approach this feature (well, maybe not by also hiding guidelines in Designer, but you get my point).

When in the middle of a job, especially one that involves stuff that extends beyond the limits of the page, artboards should be abstractions, not full-blown clipping masks. That's what clipping masks were invented for, duh. If you take a moment to consider the concept of an artboard, and of clipping stuff to its limits, Serif's “sacred” model falls completely flat on its face. It's actually downright user-hostile and stifling in its “fundamentalist WYSIWYG-ness”!

Maybe it works great on an iPad, but on a large-screen Mac/PC it's completely absurd. If you're adjusting stuff to see how it will be clipped, you want – nay, absolutely need – to see what's about to be cut off as well. It really boggles the mind just how little practical sense and understanding of the creative process Serif devs had when planning/coding/selling this. Experimenting with complete control and knowledge of what you're doing and of your source material is just… Creativity 101. That's why when you move an image inside a frame in InDesign, you actually get a semi-transparent preview of the areas which will be clipped, something which Designer doesn't even bother doing, as it just clips objects straight away even during drag operations.

This limitation goes hand-in-hand with an old one by myself, the lack of “ghost” objects (and nodes!) when dragging, whether they are of the final position (like in Illustrator), or of the initial position (like I proposed as a sensible compromise). For a long time I thought that Serif devs just had too much on their plate to be able to address those, but I'm getting more and more convinced that they have severe UX knowledge handicaps. Their decisions are all over the place, as they are either too WYSIWYG-y, or too little (as in the weird, database- and file-system-tree-like artboard-as-container model). I can't always quite put my finger on what's wrong, specifically, or call stuff by their proper names (what is it? Affordances? Forgiving UX? … err, general “intuitiveness” and “user-friendliness”), but I know Affinity is seriously borked “by design” in many, many ways. And the devs just won't listen to us when we do articulate just how and why.

That, or Designer was designed and decreed to forever be used mostly for digital illustration, and on small laptops and iPads, no less. Which is just sad and limiting for no good reason, considering the lofty goals Serif bandied about on their website, social media, this very forum, keynotes, etc.

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I just learned about the clipping of object when they straddle the art-board boundary and I think it's awesome! Not many of my designs go right to the edge - but I sometimes have a background image or something. Just because artists are not used to it does not make it a bad thing that Affinity went this route. 
I think both sides need to keep listening to each other as far as needs and wants. I can name plenty of things Adobe lacks or did that go against my intuition as a designer... 

 

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26 minutes ago, Boldlinedesign said:

I just learned about the clipping of object when they straddle the art-board boundary and I think it's awesome! Not many of my designs go right to the edge - but I sometimes have a background image or something. Just because artists are not used to it does not make it a bad thing that Affinity went this route. 
I think both sides need to keep listening to each other as far as needs and wants. I can name plenty of things Adobe lacks or did that go against my intuition as a designer... 

 

Well, from a creative and practical standpoint, once projects reach a certain level – or, better yet, a specific kind or combination thereof – of complexity, it's absolutely, positively atrocious and cumbersome. Maybe you just haven't bumped into those scenarios yet, but believe me, if you keep using the app for any extended period of time and with different kinds of projects, you absolutely will. Please take the time to peruse this thread; there are examples with screenshots, even, and… I mean, surely you can appreciate how impractical one's workflow can become on those occasions, am I right?

This is a feature that is nice to have. But terrible to be forced to use constantly. That's what we're getting at here. I don't have anything against clipping per se, as it can be very useful in many scenarios so, in a sense, you are also absolutely right in saying that it is, indeed, “awesome”. In fact, when doing those operations I described earlier, it's also essential to alternate between a clipped and unclipped state, to both see and be able to work with all your stuff unencumbered and also get a preview of how it will end up looking in a final, physical, WYSIWYG state. Thus, that's what the clipping function should be called: PREVIEW. A Preview mode, in addition to a “working” mode that, yes, would look messier, but give you more freedom to think about and experiment with your own artwork.

I rest my case, and I absolutely invite the higher echelons and UX/creativity experts from Serif to try and contradict me on my assertions here in a more rational, “QED” fashion.

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