Leading Override Invisible Marker

[Petar Petrenko]

It would be nice if you add an invisible marker for the leading override just to know where it is in case we want to change it. Right now, it is very hard to locate the position of the marker and it can't be adjusted if we try at other location.

Also, IMO, leading override must be located only in Character panel and removed from Text styles because its real usage is for local adjustments which is not possible with styles. Leading and Leading Override have the same functionality inside text styles.

[walt.farrell]

Just now, NNN said:

Leading and Leading Override have the same functionality inside text styles.

I think you're ignoring some aspects of Text Styles. You're right that Leading Override does not make sense in a Paragraph Text Style that is used as a Paragraph Text Style.

However:

1. There are also Character Text Styles. And for a Character Text Style, Leading Override does make sense.
2. There are also text styles that can show in both the Paragraph Text Style list and the Character Text Style list. And in that case, it can be applied either to a complete paragraph or to a set of characters within the paragraph. When you apply it as a Paragraph Text Style it applies to the complete paragraph, and the Leading is used. However, if you select part of the paragraph, and apply it as a Character Text Style, the Leading Override is used.

[Petar Petrenko]

50 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

I think you're ignoring some aspects of Text Styles. You're right that Leading Override does not make sense in a Paragraph Text Style that is used as a Paragraph Text Style.

However:

1. There are also Character Text Styles. And for a Character Text Style, Leading Override does make sense.
2. There are also text styles that can show in both the Paragraph Text Style list and the Character Text Style list. And in that case, it can be applied either to a complete paragraph or to a set of characters within the paragraph. When you apply it as a Paragraph Text Style it applies to the complete paragraph, and the Leading is used. However, if you select part of the paragraph, and apply it as a Character Text Style, the Leading Override is used.

Would you be so kind and give me an example, but bear in mind to apply the character style to at least 4-5 characters, but with different leading override values?

[Old Bruce]

1 hour ago, NNN said:

Also, IMO, leading override must be located only in Character panel and removed from Text styles because its real usage is for local adjustments which is not possible with styles. Leading and Leading Override have the same functionality inside text styles.

 

13 minutes ago, NNN said:

Would you be so kind and give me an example, but bear in mind to apply the character style to at least 4-5 characters, but with different leading override values?

Hand rolling superscript and subscript. Making adjustments for initial words or drop caps in a Paragraph Style. 

[Petar Petrenko]

30 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

1. Hand rolling superscript and subscript.

2. Making adjustments for initial words or drop caps in a Paragraph Style.

1. I don't understand what you mean by hand rolling.

2. Making adjustments means that all paragraphs to which that paragraph style is applied will change.

[Old Bruce]

3 minutes ago, NNN said:

1. I don't understand what you mean by hand rolling.

Old term for hand made.

 

3 minutes ago, NNN said:

2. Making adjustments means that all paragraphs to which that paragraph style is applied will change.

That is why you would use a Character Style in the Paragraph Style for the Drop Cap and or the Initial Words.

[Petar Petrenko]

2 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

That is why you would use a Character Style in the Paragraph Style for the Drop Cap and or the Initial Words.

Have you read my answer to Walt:
apply the character style to at least 4-5 characters, but with different leading override values?

[Old Bruce]

9 minutes ago, NNN said:

apply the character style to at least 4-5 characters, but with different leading override values?

Are you wanting the "different leading override values" to apply to the 4-5 characters or do you want the "different leading override values" to apply to each of the four or five characters? Meaning apply to a stretch of 4-5 characters or one override to one character, another override to a second character, a third value to a third character and on and on.

[Petar Petrenko]

7 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

Are you wanting the "different leading override values" to apply to the 4-5 characters or do you want the "different leading override values" to apply to each of the four or five characters? Meaning apply to a stretch of 4-5 characters or one override to one character, another override to a second character, a third value to a third character and on and on.

To a any number of chars (4-5 or more) with different leading override with one character style.

[sfriedberg]

12 minutes ago, NNN said:

To a any number of chars (4-5 or more) with different leading override with one character style

I think the simplest response is "One would not do that.  That either calls for multiple character styles, or un-styled local overrides.  Multiple styles would be appropriate if the same typographic effect is required in more than one place."

The main (and infrequent) use I have for leading override is making space for graphics pinned inline to text.  In some cases, I have a series of graphics of the same height, and creating a character style is useful.  If the graphic needs to be centered vertically on the text, both leading override and baseline adjustment come into play.  More often, all the graphics are different heights so I don't bother creating a style and just use local overrides.

Because I do a lot of mathematical typesetting, I use character styles with baseline and font size adjustments quite heavily.  These don't involve leading override, as even super-superscript and sub-subscript styles are tweaked to fit within the body text paragraph style's normal leading.  However, it is all too common that I have a sequence of 3-8 characters where every character has a different character style assigned than the ones to either side.

[Old Bruce]

I am as confused by the 

35 minutes ago, NNN said:

To a any number of chars (4-5 or more) with different leading override with one character style.

so I'll end with this

I support the idea of an invisible marker for Leading Override. Would be useful in find and replace. Some sort of method of finding any size override would be terrific.

I do not support the statement; 

3 hours ago, NNN said:

Leading and Leading Override have the same functionality inside text styles.

They do not have the same functionality. 

[Petar Petrenko]

31 minutes ago, sfriedberg said:

1. I think the simplest response is "One would not do that. That either calls for multiple character styles, or un-styled local overrides.

2. Multiple styles would be appropriate if the same typographic effect is required in more than one place."

1. Taht's exactly want I want to say. If you need to apply different leading override to a multiple places creating styles is not appropriate.

2. I agree with this.

35 minutes ago, sfriedberg said:

The main (and infrequent) use I have for leading override is making space for graphics pinned inline to text.

I put graphic on separate line because I usually use align to baseline grid for the body text.

39 minutes ago, sfriedberg said:

Because I do a lot of mathematical typesetting, I use character styles with baseline and font size adjustments quite heavily.  These don't involve leading override, as even super-superscript and sub-subscript styles are tweaked to fit within the body text paragraph style's normal leading.  However, it is all too common that I have a sequence of 3-8 characters where every character has a different character style assigned than the ones to either side.

Math equations atract more attention if they are on separate lines like other graphic elements even they are short and the same size as the body text.

[walt.farrell]

1 hour ago, NNN said:

1. Taht's exactly want I want to say. If you need to apply different leading override to a multiple places creating styles is not appropriate.

If you have a random selection of different leading overrides applied in many places, that's not appropriate for a text style. But as soon as you have a consistent leading override applied in multiple places, it is appropriate.

Perhaps you have multiple sets of "4-5 characters" scattered around that all need a leading override of 10pt. You could reasonably make a character text style for that. You probably wouldn't do it if you had one set that needed an override of 10pt and one other set that needed 15pt.

You generally use text styles when you have a large amount of similarities between text, not small amounts of random values.

The main point is, you may not find the ability for a text style to supply a leading override meaningful. That's fine. Just don't use it. Others with different experiences or needs than you may find the capability useful. So I would disagree with its removal.

I could construct an example that does it and show you, but you could probably create it, too. I don't happen to have a true need for it in my current work, so it would be purely made up to illustrate that the function actually works as I said it did.

But I can see that it provides a capability that can be useful, either to me in the future or to someone else.

[thomaso]

9 hours ago, NNN said:

IMO, leading override must be located only in Character panel and removed from Text styles because its real usage is for local adjustments which is not possible with styles. Leading and Leading Override have the same functionality inside text styles.

Leading Override is placed in the Text Style Editor window because, when defining a style, you may choose whether the style you create shall be a paragraph or a character style. You even can use Leading Override applied to an entire paragraph, e.g. to visually weight this part differently.

8 hours ago, NNN said:

Would you be so kind and give me an example, but bear in mind to apply the character style to at least 4-5 characters, but with different leading override values?

Note in this sample are no paragraph or line breaks, the leading override applied to the coloured text causes different leading for their lines, independent of the text flow.

Leading Override also allows to maintain a different leading for the applied words independent of the base line grid, respectively if the baseline grid is off / the frame or style is set to ignore the grid.

[Petar Petrenko]

5 hours ago, thomaso said:

Note in this sample are no paragraph or line breaks, the leading override applied to the coloured text causes different leading for their lines, independent of the text flow.

In these 2 examples you didn't use text styles because you can't do it with them. You just, simply, can't set inside text style which line(s) you want to apply the leading override (LO) to. Personally I don't use LO (and do not recomend it, at all) because it changes the rhytm of the text, the "color" of the page (darker or lighter) as authors like James Felici, Nigel French, James Craig, Robert Bringhurst... advice.

I always use fixed leading (not Auto) because I don't like inline graphic(s) to change the leading on the line(s) they appear. In this case I would resize the graphic (make it smaller) or change the leading value in the text style to be applyed globally.

In cases of drop caps and small caps on the first line of the paragraph, which is usually used in the opening paragraphs (just after the subtitles) I would use bigger leading.

Of course you can use LO freely where you want, this is just my opinion.

[thomaso]

2 hours ago, NNN said:

In these 2 examples you didn't use text styles because you can't do it with them. You just, simply, can't set inside text style which line(s) you want to apply the leading override (LO) to.

When you save a certain formatting as character style + apply this in the example to the coloured words it will affect those lines which contain the words. Visually, there is no difference between text formatted using panels only and using the text style editor + saved styles.

[walt.farrell]

13 hours ago, NNN said:

In these 2 examples you didn't use text styles because you can't do it with them. You just, simply, can't set inside text style which line(s) you want to apply the leading override (LO) to.

style-leading.afpub

In this document, I have a text frame with several paragraphs and 2 text styles.

1. First paragraph is [No Style].
2. Second has paragraph text style Par-Style assigned, with a leading of 24pt.
3. Third has paragraph text style Par-Style assigned (leading 24pt), and some text in the middle of the paragraph has character text style Char-Style applied, which assigns a leading override of 36pt.
4. Fourth is back to [No Style].

So, yes, you can assign both Leading via a text style and Leading Override via another text style to the same paragraph. (I was, however, incorrect in thinking that you could have both Leading Override and Leading in a text style, and apply it at both the paragraph and character level. Only the Leading Override is used.)

[garrettm30]

Leading override is useful in character styles when the character style uses a different font with different leading metrics, and when the paragraph it is used in has leading defined as anything other than fixed units. Leading override can then be tweaked to match the surrounding text.

[thomaso]

On 3/15/2022 at 10:00 PM, garrettm30 said:

Leading override is useful in character styles when the character style uses a different font with different leading metrics,

Yes. (… whereas alternatively a Frame Baseline Grid can be used to equalize different leadings. See this screenshot)
Nevertheless, Leading Override is useful to achieve a specific leading where a default or equalized leading / baseline grid should not get used.