Gradient Tool Too Small, Cannot Detach Gradient Properties Editor

[Kim Panattoni]

1 minute ago, JimmyJack said:

You CAN use the Gradient Map to drive a fill. Follow the instructions I gave in my first post.

When applied as a layer, sure, and I would love to do so, but I have not been able to get the method you are showing here to work. I spent over an hour trying to get the gradient adjustment layer to apply itself to the object but failed. 

 

While related to this, though not a part of the main issue I am having... If I create a gradient either in the editor itself or as an adjustment layer, is there a way (I spent hours on this as well) to add it to the gradients swatch panel? This also stumped me.

 

I am certainly a new user, and am hoping to ditch Adobe eventually. I am just finding the learning curve, even with the load of tutorials on YouTube (and believe me, finding the precise thing I am trying to achieve by searching YouTube has been a nightmare) to be very steep. Perhaps I am just old and set in my ways.  

[Kim Panattoni]

Sorry, cannot delete comments apparently. But I edited the other comment to reflect what I was trying to ask.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Kim Panattoni
I replied twice.

[Kim Panattoni]

On 3/6/2022 at 9:29 PM, JimmyJack said:

Hi @Kim Panattoni, the Gradient Map is  mapping it's colors to the L values of what it's assigned to.
So if you want to use the Gradient Map Adjustment as a color fill (in order to utilize the larger info dialog) you must first assign a simple two point black to white gradient as the fill to (in this case) the circle first. Then the colors of the gradient map will appear like a fill gradient.

Oh, and btw, if you type in 37.03% in the position dialog box (in both types of gradients) that is what you'll get in reality. It's not rounding to a whole number like you see.

Ok, I missed out on this somehow, I am sorry. I am going to tinker with this now.  I am going to delete my other reply, though I will move its other question here: Adjustable midpoints in the Gradient Adjustment Layer?

Edited March 8, 2022 by Kim Panattoni

[NotMyFault]

2 hours ago, Kim Panattoni said:

Ok, I missed out on this somehow, I am sorry. I am going to tinker with this now.  I am going to delete my other reply, though I will move its other question here: Adjustable midpoints in the Gradient Adjustment Layer?

Add a curves adjustment below (not nested) the gradient adjustment, create a node at curves 50% position, drag a node up or down.

[Kim Panattoni]

11 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

Add a curves adjustment below (not nested) the gradient adjustment, create a node at curves 50% position, drag a node up or down.

Whew~~~ Waaaay over my head at my current level of learning the software. Um... I do know what curves adjustment layers are given Adobe products, but I am not certain about using the term "nodes" in relationship to them... Nor using the terminology "nested" in this context... But what I think you are saying is that somehow curves adjustments can affect the midpoints between colour points in the Gradient Adjustment Layer's actual gradient editor? I think that is what you are saying, but I am not sure I understand the way that curves would affect gradient colour points... Can you elaborate on that, assuming that I have only opened Designer for the first time in the last 7 days?  

Thanks!

[NotMyFault]

30 minutes ago, Kim Panattoni said:

Whew~~~ Waaaay over my head at my current level of learning the software. Um... I do know what curves adjustment layers are given Adobe products, but I am not certain about using the term "nodes" in relationship to them... Nor using the terminology "nested" in this context... But what I think you are saying is that somehow curves adjustments can affect the midpoints between colour points in the Gradient Adjustment Layer's actual gradient editor? I think that is what you are saying, but I am not sure I understand the way that curves would affect gradient colour points... Can you elaborate on that, assuming that I have only opened Designer for the first time in the last 7 days?  

Thanks!

I suggest to start watching the official tutorial videos first. There were made specifically for all who are in your situation. I used them, too.

It would not be efficient if we try to explain the basics which can be self-studied easily.

[Kim Panattoni]

1 hour ago, NotMyFault said:

I suggest to start watching the official tutorial videos first. There were made specifically for all who are in your situation. I used them, too.

It would not be efficient if we try to explain the basics which can be self-studied easily.

I appreciate the suggestion, and I know that it is important for new users to use YT to learn the ropes before asking questions on forums of any kind, even social media outlets. I admit that I often have terrible luck in searching for anything on any platform including Google. However I came to the forums after spending a couple of days -literally, not figuratively- on YouTube looking for answers to this particular question despite having been through a number of basics and beginner tutorial playlists. They are definitely good for new users like me, and I have learned a lot. I have been through more "introduction" and "the basics" videos and playlists on YT than I care to count. As I said, I really have learned a lot, which is what got me to this point. There are also lots of tips and tricks videos/playlists on a few YT channels, and those are helpful in general. My post here is not about basics but thinking outside of the box to solve a problem based upon basic tools. Basically using those tools to make the software stand on its ear to accomplish a goal. That requires a lot more of an advanced understanding of the software than what I can find on YT.

To be honest, I have had very little luck on YouTube in finding solutions to my specific problems and or training needs. When it comes to Affinity Photo, I cannot seem to find videos that are relevant to using it as a design tool in addition to a digital darkroom. When it comes to Designer, well I have already gone into that above When researching gradients and adjustment layers, everything that I have been able to find focuses only on the gradient editor itself, or on the fact that there is a gradient adjustment layer and how neat it is. I had no idea that what @JimmyJack explained regarding how a gradient adjustment layer map interacts with a gradient fill on the object. I had no idea that it uses the two points. And I could not find anything regarding that in any of the searching I described above.

Everyone here has been helpful and has worked to get through what initially boiled down to very poor wording and examples on my part in order to get this far with relative ease. I wish I could say the same about YouTube. *sigh* 

 

P.S. -The way I learned how to get creative in Illustrator was going through a very long and in depth training course from lynda dot com (now a part of LinkedIn). One of their 3 part courses with well over 100 videos for every level of understanding possible. This is just a learning curve issue I am dealing with.

[Wosven]

17 hours ago, Kim Panattoni said:

as an adjustment layer, is there a way (I spent hours on this as well) to add it to the gradients swatch panel?

No. Sadly.

It's a feature asked for:

...

[JimmyJack]

@Kim Panattoni, no you can't save a Gradient Map color spectrum to swatches as others have already said. BUT, you can save the rig as an asset!
Sure you'll have to change the container or adjust the black and white stops on the primary gradient, but at least you won't have to reconstruct a many stop gradient.
(also: no, no way to add actual midpoints in the Gradient Map itself. I haven't tried the curves suggestion.)

Shown here as an asset and then used inside a different shape and used as a different gradient type. The gradient is there all set up and still editable.
And importantly, it's visually identifiable in the asset panel as it would be in the swatches panel.

[Kim Panattoni]

3 hours ago, Wosven said:

No. Sadly.

It's a feature asked for:

Do you think that work on the gradient editor is worth asking for in the features request forum?

[Wosven]

5 hours ago, Kim Panattoni said:

Do you think that work on the gradient editor is worth asking for in the features request forum?

Of course. Each one of us have different worflow, but some will use more some features than other. For the ones that create complexe gradients, being able to modify them in a larger panel is important. For those who have a huge collection of gradients swatch, and need to use them on object or in gradients map, being able to pick gradient swacthes when using the gradient map is important,etc.

I suppose that  people asking for features need them more than once.

We can always use tricks, but if there a simpler and logical way to do things, that's always better.

[NotMyFault]

12 hours ago, Kim Panattoni said:

Whew~~~ Waaaay over my head at my current level of learning the software. Um... I do know what curves adjustment layers are given Adobe products, but I am not certain about using the term "nodes" in relationship to them... Nor using the terminology "nested" in this context... But what I think you are saying is that somehow curves adjustments can affect the midpoints between colour points in the Gradient Adjustment Layer's actual gradient editor? I think that is what you are saying, but I am not sure I understand the way that curves would affect gradient colour points... Can you elaborate on that, assuming that I have only opened Designer for the first time in the last 7 days?  

Thanks!

I hope this explains how it works.

(rectangle with gradient / curves adjustment with 1 node, set to linear / gradient map adjustment.

[iconoclast]

On 3/8/2022 at 3:50 AM, Kim Panattoni said:

Aiya... While it is pretty cool that this can be done, it is indeed confusing for me. I need the interactive GUI interface in which I can not only place my points, but change the midpoints, edit colour values, and see it applied as I do it. Code and code syntax are just not my bag of salsa.  As to Designer, I just find it odd that there is no way to get around it. When you add a gradient layer mask, it pops up a gradient editor that is huge compared to the one docked in the menu bar. It floats next to the layers panel. I was hoping to find a way to use it to create and manage the gradient on a layer, but have yet to find one. Still it remains that the gradient editor is just too small. I have had gradients in Adobe apps that were over 20 shades As is shown in my post above, you can see that in Illustrator, a gradient editor is capable of being detached/undocked/whatever the term is for Designer. I wonder, is this something to post in the feature requests area of the forums?

I think it is a matter of taste and habit. If you would have a bigger GUI-panel for the gradients, it would sometimes be in the way, and you would have to close it, to get rid of it and to reopen it, if you need it again. I know that from other apps. In Affinity you have this small dropdown panel that doesn't need much space, but you can also set, move and recolor color points directly on your image. For me this is a good solution.

[Kim Panattoni]

Hey everyone!

So having been through a lot of the different processes here, I decided to make a colour wheel. Here is what happened:

The method I used for this first one was to use a Gradient Adjustment Layer. Not a bad result, but I wound up with a ton of dithering noise and gradient banding. I tried all sorts of things to fix this, even just to fix the appearance of it and had minimal luck. Worse, if I were to copy the ellipse to another program like Photo, or even Illustrator, -even as an svg file- I would get that incredibly So I called that attempt good and took a break for a while.

I came back later and was nosing around the panels and forgot that there was an effects panel right next to the layers panel. That got me thinking: Is there a gradient effect in there... well lo and behold there is! While the gradient panel here is around the same size as the one found in a Gradient Adjustment Layer, the effects window can be moved all around the screen... and there is a plus! This gradient editor contains midpoints, so you can adjust things with a lot more precision. Dang, if only I had seen this earlier! And by doing it this way, the effect copies along with it, no matter where you put it... even in some other random app.

--EDIT FOR MORE COOL STUFF--

With this option you can create a style that you can apply to any object. I was fiddling around and suddenly it worked. You cannot make a gradient swatch out of it, but you have the ability to make and save a style.

Y'all are great, thank you so much! Here are some pics along the way so you can see my progress... and a bit of a crummy video on doing this:

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Kim Panattoni
Added video of technique.

[iconoclast]

You're right, you can create a gradient also with the Layer-FX. Didn't think of it. But you can do the same with the small dropdown panel you don't seem to like. I personally find it more convenient. Especially if you activate the Fill Tool (Shortkey "G"). Then you get the gradient path lying over the shape. And you can add points by doubleclicking on it and move and recolor the points. And you can zoom in to be able to adjust the distances between the points very fine. Also the result of this can be stored as a Style.

[NotMyFault]

The difference could be cause by RGB/8 color depth. If you use RGB/16 it should be smooth as butter on Affinity.

If you made a screenshot: rendering (and screenshot) might be limited by you display color depth capability.

 

3 hours ago, Kim Panattoni said:

Hey everyone!

So having been through a lot of the different processes here, I decided to make a colour wheel. Here is what happened:

The method I used for this first one was to use a Gradient Adjustment Layer. Not a bad result, but I wound up with a ton of dithering noise and gradient banding. I tried all sorts of things to fix this, even just to fix the appearance of it and had minimal luck. Worse, if I were to copy the ellipse to another program like Photo, or even Illustrator, -even as an svg file- I would get that incredibly So I called that attempt good and took a break for a while.

I came back later and was nosing around the panels and forgot that there was an effects panel right next to the layers panel. That got me thinking: Is there a gradient effect in there... well lo and behold there is! While the gradient panel here is around the same size as the one found in a Gradient Adjustment Layer, the effects window can be moved all around the screen... and there is a plus! This gradient editor contains midpoints, so you can adjust things with a lot more precision. Dang, if only I had seen this earlier! And by doing it this way, the effect copies along with it, no matter where you put it... even in some other random app.

--EDIT FOR MORE COOL STUFF--

With this option you can create a style that you can apply to any object. I was fiddling around and suddenly it worked. You cannot make a gradient swatch out of it, but you have the ability to make and save a style.

Y'all are great, thank you so much! Here are some pics along the way so you can see my progress... and a bit of a crummy video on doing this:

 

[Kim Panattoni]

6 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

The difference could be cause by RGB/8 color depth. If you use RGB/16 it should be smooth as butter on Affinity.

If you made a screenshot: rendering (and screenshot) might be limited by you display color depth capability.

 

Actually, this isi CMYK. CMYK Colour Wheel for a project I was doing ast year.

[Kim Panattoni]

8 hours ago, iconoclast said:

You're right, you can create a gradient also with the Layer-FX. Didn't think of it. But you can do the same with the small dropdown panel you don't seem to like. I personally find it more convenient. Especially if you activate the Fill Tool (Shortkey "G"). Then you get the gradient path lying over the shape. And you can add points by doubleclicking on it and move and recolor the points. And you can zoom in to be able to adjust the distances between the points very fine. Also the result of this can be stored as a Style.

I know, right?  That is one of the things that excited me so much. When you look at my comment I was very excited to mention that, and I even made a short video showing me doing that, as well as the ability to once again have midpoint control. I am really glad that came up.  

[Kim Panattoni]

2 hours ago, Kim Panattoni said:

Actually, this isi CMYK. CMYK Colour Wheel for a project I was doing ast year.

 

Okay: I put this comment in the wrong place. I was replying to @NotMyFault about the monitor depth and the monitor vs. image quality.

OOPS!

You are totally right. Though in this situation, the thing that really ensured me that it was not  related to the display depth was pasting it into another app and seeing the banding as solid lines. When I use this method, that does not happen at all. As to screen display depth, I specifically chose this monitor for photography and ease of calibration. Totally valid, and it did fine in RGB as you mentioned, so good stuff there.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Kim Panattoni
Replied to myself instead of someone else.

[Kim Panattoni]

8 hours ago, iconoclast said:

But you can do the same with the small dropdown panel you don't seem to like. I personally find it more convenient. Especially if you activate the Fill Tool (Shortkey "G"). Then you get the gradient path lying over the shape. And you can add points by doubleclicking on it and move and recolor the points. And you can zoom in to be able to adjust the distances between the points very fine. Also the result of this can be stored as a Style.

As to not liking the dropdown panel... I know my screen resolution is huge, which does create some problems. The thing I do not like, though, is that the window width is small even on a lower resolution. I also do not like it because I cannot detach it into its own floating panel... The Layer FX method gives me a larger gradient to work with, and unlike the adjustment layer, gives me midpoints again, as we talked about. Just better control and a larger window to work with.   The tools however, once you get used to them and all are very powerful. I just like this approach a little more, and when it comes to gradients themselves, they are embedded in the layer rather nested, so the gradients come out far smoother. I do realise, though, as @NotMyFaultmentioned, that 8-bit can have a less than ideal effect on this sort of thing. CMYK is 8-bit, and I needed CMYK for this example for more purposes than the forums, so it will be unique...

 

But the styles thing! OMG! ❤️❤️❤️ When I saw that I nearly lost bodily control, if you get my drift. I was experimenting with the panels and as someone mentioned that saving as gradient swatches themselves would not work with the other approach, I thought I would see what the right click would offer. When I saw styles I jumped, and so I tried it. I went back and looked and I was so incredibly thrilled! The cat thought I was nuts.  That is why after posting, I went and made that video showing me using it. I could not wait to show everyone, especially with all the learning everyone has helped me with here.  

[iconoclast]

10 hours ago, Kim Panattoni said:

As to not liking the dropdown panel... I know my screen resolution is huge, which does create some problems. The thing I do not like, though, is that the window width is small even on a lower resolution. I also do not like it because I cannot detach it into its own floating panel... The Layer FX method gives me a larger gradient to work with, and unlike the adjustment layer, gives me midpoints again, as we talked about. Just better control and a larger window to work with.   The tools however, once you get used to them and all are very powerful. I just like this approach a little more, and when it comes to gradients themselves, they are embedded in the layer rather nested, so the gradients come out far smoother. I do realise, though, as @NotMyFaultmentioned, that 8-bit can have a less than ideal effect on this sort of thing. CMYK is 8-bit, and I needed CMYK for this example for more purposes than the forums, so it will be unique...

 

But the styles thing! OMG! ❤️❤️❤️ When I saw that I nearly lost bodily control, if you get my drift. I was experimenting with the panels and as someone mentioned that saving as gradient swatches themselves would not work with the other approach, I thought I would see what the right click would offer. When I saw styles I jumped, and so I tried it. I went back and looked and I was so incredibly thrilled! The cat thought I was nuts.  That is why after posting, I went and made that video showing me using it. I could not wait to show everyone, especially with all the learning everyone has helped me with here.  

Yes, the Styles are an amazing feature. I totally agree. Only to be save, have you noticed that you can also save 3D-effects, drop shadows etc. as styles? Styles can also be fixed to certain fonts. So as a tip: if you want to create standard styles for later use, it will possibly be better to create them from a shape like f.e. the Gear. If you create them from a certain editable text or single character, the style will always recall this certain font you created it from.

[Kim Panattoni]

12 hours ago, iconoclast said:

Yes, the Styles are an amazing feature. I totally agree. Only to be save, have you noticed that you can also save 3D-effects, drop shadows etc. as styles? Styles can also be fixed to certain fonts. So as a tip: if you want to create standard styles for later use, it will possibly be better to create them from a shape like f.e. the Gear. If you create them from a certain editable text or single character, the style will always recall this certain font you created it from.

Oh wow, I did not know that they kept their shape or suggested shape when you saved them. That is cool, I can dump my conical back into a linear and change the shape so I can save it as a straight line (which I actually would need to do in this case, since the RGB version of it aligns to visual spectrum wavelengths and will not have an even distribution as this does. But in other cases, that will be good too. I did save this particular style calling it something like CMYK Colour Wheel for example, so I can also open the file and save one as a line for future use elsewhere. As to the effects, I have not tried them yet, but based upon this behaviour I was starting to wonder if you could do that as well. That is all great to know, and thank you!

[Kim Panattoni]

On 3/9/2022 at 12:51 AM, iconoclast said:

I think it is a matter of taste and habit. If you would have a bigger GUI-panel for the gradients, it would sometimes be in the way, and you would have to close it, to get rid of it and to reopen it, if you need it again. I know that from other apps. In Affinity you have this small dropdown panel that doesn't need much space, but you can also set, move and recolor color points directly on your image. For me this is a good solution.

(re-reading this after your most recent comment, sorry) - Editing points on the object itself is a good thing and I can see the use for that in many places. The main reason I wanted a bigger window was because I want (and still will likely request the feature) to have a floating window that I could move around and size according to the complexity of my gradients in the event that like this one, I needed the colour points in specific places along it, so need to edit their position and colour each time without having to look at it so small or to not have midpoint control as with the solution I am working with now. Still not ideal for my particular needs, but a far better workaround, and the benefits you and I have discussed already make that an easier way for me to work. Thanks again about the info on saving styles with the basics so they can be used more easily on other projects. They remind me of something other apps call "Master Templates". Very cool.

 

[Kim Panattoni]

@iconoclastInteresting enough, seems like you and I have the same Mac Mini.  

[iconoclast]

1 hour ago, Kim Panattoni said:

Oh wow, I did not know that they kept their shape or suggested shape when you saved them. That is cool, I can dump my conical back into a linear and change the shape so I can save it as a straight line (which I actually would need to do in this case, since the RGB version of it aligns to visual spectrum wavelengths and will not have an even distribution as this does. But in other cases, that will be good too. I did save this particular style calling it something like CMYK Colour Wheel for example, so I can also open the file and save one as a line for future use elsewhere. As to the effects, I have not tried them yet, but based upon this behaviour I was starting to wonder if you could do that as well. That is all great to know, and thank you!

To prevent misunderstandings, you can't save shapes as styles. I think that wouldn't even make sense. Shapes can be added to (and then dragged from) the Assets panel. Styles are only for effects, colors, gradients... that you apply to shapes or text. And a font also is such an attribute you can give a style. But you should be aware of that if you create a style from an editable text, the style will also contain the information what font the text used. Because if you create a text later, and you want to apply a style to it, in that moment it would possibly change the font you have chosen. You can prevent this by creating your styles from shapes - not from editable text. Except you definitely want that certain font to be connected with that style. This is a thing one should know, I think.