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William Overington

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1 hour ago, William Overington said:

However, for some particular situations, such as seeking information through the language barrier about relatives and friends after a disaster, a set of a few hundred sentences could be a very effective way of proceeding.

True.

However, that suggests that different situations (or possibly different institutions) will need different sets of sentences. In that case, !983 for one use might be different from !983 for another use. Or, as with Unicode, there might be one overall encoding (= set of numbers) but with a Private Use Area (PUA) for sentences unique to an institution or situation.

And in that case, simply saying !983 is not sufficient; you'll need additional information to point to the institution- or situation-specific translation file or the number either will not translate, or will translate incorrectly.

-- Walt
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8 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

However, that suggests that different situations (or possibly different institutions) will need different sets of sentences. In that case, !983 for one use might be different from !983 for another use.

I don’t see how the scheme could work if !983 meant “Thank you for visiting.” in most scenarios but something entirely different in others. The whole idea, as I understand it, is that there’s a one-to-one mapping in each case.

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4 minutes ago, Alfred said:

I don’t see how the scheme could work if !983 meant “Thank you for visiting.” in most scenarios but something entirely different in others. The whole idea, as I understand it, is that there’s a one-to-one mapping in each case.

If it must be unique, them you need a worldwide registry assigning the numbers, and assigning a base sentence to each number. This is similar to what we have for Unicode or Emojis. 

However, then the standards body in charge of that mapping will also need to decide which sentences to include, and as we've mentioned there are many more possible sentences than symbols. (We're back to the example of Chinese encoding words, not sentences.)

And every institution that needs something slightly different or additional will have to work through the standards body to try to get their sentence included.

Or you will need the equivalent of the Unicode PUA so the institutions can simply ignore the standards body and make their own assignments. 

Or perhaps they'll just say it's all to difficult, and not use the scheme at all, since they haven't needed it so far.

-- Walt
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18 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

True.

However, that suggests that different situations (or possibly different institutions) will need different sets of sentences.

That does not have a yes oir no answer.

21 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

 In that case, !983 for one use might be different from !983 for another use.

Actually, no. Each localizable sentence has a unique code within the system.

23 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Or, as with Unicode, there might be one overall encoding (= set of numbers) ...

Yes.

24 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

... but with a Private Use Area (PUA) for sentences unique to an institution or situation.

There is the possibility of including a Private Use Area, but not for significant long-term use, the idea is to encode requested sets of sentences into the standard, with a more liberal encoding policy.

The Unicode Private Use Area can be extremely useful in some situations, such as being able to include glyphs in a font and the using them in a PDF document for example.

29 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

True.

However, that suggests that different situations (or possibly different institutions) will need different sets of sentences. In that case, !983 for one use might be different from !983 for another use. Or, as with Unicode, there might be one overall encoding (= set of numbers) but with a Private Use Area (PUA) for sentences unique to an institution or situation.

And in that case, simply saying !983 is not sufficient; you'll need additional information to point to the institution- or situation-specific translation file or the number either will not translate, or will translate incorrectly.

 

30 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

And in that case, simply saying !983 is not sufficient; you'll need additional information to point to the institution- or situation-specific translation file or the number either will not translate, or will translate incorrectly.

Well, !983 is a unique encoding.

If a Private Use Area is included, then the additional information that you suggest will be needed may or may not be needed in a particular situation, depending upon what is the private use.

Yet if such a Private Use Area is included then it will be accessed in such a way as to avoid confusion with regularly encoded sentences.

For example, perhaps encoded starting with !# rather than ! so as to be a clearly separate, yet associated, encoding.

William

 

Until December 2022, using a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 in England. From January 2023, using an HP laptop running Windows 11 in England.

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12 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

If it must be unique, them you need a worldwide registry assigning the numbers, and assigning a base sentence to each number. This is similar to what we have for Unicode or Emojis. 

Yes.

ISO/TC 37

14 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

However, then the standards body in charge of that mapping will also need to decide which sentences to include, ..

Yes.

16 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

... and as we've mentioned there are many more possible sentences than symbols.

Um, possibly.

But ISO/IEC 10646 / Unicode does not encode every possible symbol. This system does not encode every possible sentence.

18 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

(We're back to the example of Chinese encoding words, not sentences.)

I really don't follow what that is about. People keep mentioning Chinese.

20 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

And every institution that needs something slightly different or additional will have to work through the standards body to try to get their sentence included.

Well, basically yes, but they may need to work through their National Standards Body that would forward requests to ISO.

Once encoded, each sentence and its encoding would be free for everybody to use, as interoperability is important. No monopolies or licenses.

25 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Or you will need the equivalent of the Unicode PUA so the institutions can simply ignore the standards body and make their own assignments. 

Well, if an organization decided to do its own thing outside the standard then that would be a matter for them, not for me to assist them in doing that.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/localizable_sentences_the_novel_chapter_051.pdf

34 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Or perhaps they'll just say it's all to difficult, and not use the scheme at all, since they haven't needed it so far.

Well that is a matter for them.

By the way, the first person to ever provide any translations for the project, was Magnus Bodin.

Those translations were extremely useful for thought plus pen and paper experiments with localizable sentences. Many changes with the encoding numbers since, but te translations can be used with the present encodings.

All part of the history of information technology now, but at the time it was "today".

https://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2009-m04/0231.html

But there is something strange about how the page is archived, the accented characters come out properly in some situations, it is something to do with code page settings that I don't understand.

William

 

Until December 2022, using a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 in England. From January 2023, using an HP laptop running Windows 11 in England.

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15 minutes ago, William Overington said:

But there is something strange about how the page is archived, the accented characters come out properly in some situations, it is something to do with code page settings that I don't understand.

I don’t see any accented characters that have “come out properly” on that page. :(

The first example that includes accents should look like this:

Quote

Tack för svar på min fråga

You may find the following page to be of interest:

https://mymemory.translated.net/en/Swedish/English/Tack-för-svar-på-min-fråga

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It is something to do with code pages.

The original email had all the accented characters, and I think that at some stage the archived version did too but not now and not on my computer.

William

 

Until December 2022, using a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 in England. From January 2023, using an HP laptop running Windows 11 in England.

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Here is a transcript from the original mailing list email

 
       
Re: Localizable Sentences Experiment
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 16:26, William_J_G Overington
<wjgo_10009@btinternet.com> wrote:
     

If people are interested to translate the fifteen sentences into languages other than English and publish the results in this thread then that would be very helpful.


AND HERE ARE THE RESULTS FROM THE SWEDISH JURY:
NOTE: UMLAUTS AHEAD.
NOTE: LAST ADDITION NEEDS CODEPOINT


Swedish, as spoken in Sweden, i.e. "sv-se"
================================

U+F9001 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE GOOD DAY

God dag!


U+F9001 LOCALIZABLE PHRASE THE CHECK IS IN THE MAIL

Checken har skickats per brev



U+F900F LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THANK YOU FOR RESPONDING TO MY QUESTION.

Tack för svar på min fråga



U+F9010 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE FOLLOWING QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED.

Följande fråga har ställts:



U+F9011 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE MY ANSWER IS AS FOLLOWS.

Mitt svar är följande:



U+F9012 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE NO.

Nej.



U+F9013 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE YES.

Ja.


U+F9020 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE WHAT IS THE WEATHER SITUATION WHERE YOU
ARE LOCATED PLEASE?

Hur är vädret där ni befinner er?



U+F9021 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IS IT RAINING?

Regnar det?



U+F9022 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IS IT SNOWING?

Snöar det?



U+F9023 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IS IT SUNNY?

Är det soligt?


U+F9024 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IS IT CLOUDY?

Är det molnigt?



U+F9031 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IT IS RAINING.

Det regnar.



U+F9032 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IT IS SNOWING.

Det snöar.



U+F9033 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IT IS SUNNY.

Det är soligt.



U+F9034 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IT IS CLOUDY.

Det är molnigt.



U+F9XXX LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE BEST REGARDS,

Vänliga hälsningar,


 

Until December 2022, using a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 in England. From January 2023, using an HP laptop running Windows 11 in England.

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Readers who would like to look back at the history may lke the following link.

https://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2009-m04/index.html

The thread starts on 16 April 2009.

The first two posts are, for a reason unknown, are in the wrong order.

William

 

Until December 2022, using a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 in England. From January 2023, using an HP laptop running Windows 11 in England.

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I imagine Semafor would never be convinced to use that Thank you for visiting code.

I have no idea whether Semafor still exists but it was a famous theatre in Prague back in the ’60s and ’70s. I was privileged to see a performance in my younger years, and I loved the welcome sign, the first thing you’d see upon entering. A rough English translation would be, Welcome ye who with a good intention leave. Yes, some of their things may have been seen as controversial, so they welcomed you if you still liked them after their performance.

Such a sign would have been impossible with a sentence code (which would violate their copyright anyway), but it could have been made with word codes, such as Egyptian hieroglyphics or those Chinese glyphs that puzzle you so much, William.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semafor

has a linkto the teatre's website.

https://www.semafor.cz/

There is an option to get a version of the website in English.

William

 

Until December 2022, using a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 in England. From January 2023, using an HP laptop running Windows 11 in England.

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19 minutes ago, William Overington said:

There is an option to get a version of the website in English.

How and where did you find that option? :/

 

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It came up on a panel at top right.

It did not seem to have a different web address.

When I tried it again it did not come up.

But later, when i tried again, it came up.

William

 

Until December 2022, using a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 in England. From January 2023, using an HP laptop running Windows 11 in England.

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10 hours ago, William Overington said:

It came up on a panel at top right.

It did not seem to have a different web address.

When I tried it again it did not come up.

But later, when i tried again, it came up.

It isn’t coming up for me, even if I switch off my ad blocker. :(

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9 hours ago, AdamStanislav said:

Wow, it’s like visiting an old friend. Definitely my second favorite theatre in the world.

Having read that, I was going to ask ...

Then I saw

9 hours ago, AdamStanislav said:

Oh and before anyone asks, https://www.ckrumlov.info/en/sights-and-culture-101-revolving-theatre-cesky-krumlov/ is my favorite theatre in the world.

So, what is your third favourite theatre in the world please?

William

 

Until December 2022, using a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 in England. From January 2023, using an HP laptop running Windows 11 in England.

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52 minutes ago, Alfred said:

It isn’t coming up for me, even if I switch off my ad blocker. :(

Well, it can be intermittent.

I have tried it this morning and it came up.

czech_theatre_detail.png.1589828f9fe77f1a2fe2f76bf5382ce5.png

William

 

Until December 2022, using a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 in England. From January 2023, using an HP laptop running Windows 11 in England.

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9 minutes ago, William Overington said:

Well, it can be intermittent.

I have tried it this morning ad it came up.

czech_theatre_detail.png.1589828f9fe77f1a2fe2f76bf5382ce5.png

William

 

Thanks for the screenshot, William. That isn’t an integral part of the site, it’s a browser control offering an option to invoke Google Translate. You can see the same thing by going here and then clicking on the ‘external link’ icon in the right-hand pane, which takes you to here.

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9 minutes ago, William Overington said:

An interesting thing about several Central European languages is the use in some of a c caron and/or an s caron.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caron

Also known as a haček, a name which neatly demonstrates what it looks like.

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15 minutes ago, William Overington said:

caron

Wow, I wasn’t aware that this lady is still alive:

187px-Leslie_Caron-publicity.JPG

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