Selecting a Subject without using Refine Selection ? And Working directly on a Mask ?

[augustya]

Hi Guys,

I wanted to know what do you guys think on this I have seen a lot of Experts, Pro in Affinity Photo recommend and advocate this while making a selection these experts do not recommend to use the Refine Option in Affinity Photo instead they strongly suggest to add a Mask and then after the Mask gets added then tidy up and refine mask manually. If required Alt+Click on the Mask which gives a Black and White View and work on it.

But I have a problem here, I tried it is it a very workable option ? I don’t think so for a couple of and let’s say if you have missed some Foreground, to select the missed part you can just use the paint brush there and it does the rest of selection for you, like it fills up the rest of things for you, same for the background, that kind of Auto detection is not Possible when you add a mask and try to work upon tidying up that Mask right? So isn’t this something that can be missed when directly working on Mask Instead of working in refine ? 

When I tried it my problem was, when you click on the Mask and you wanna tidy up things you don’t know what are the edges of the subject (Lets say if you are selecting a subject) so either you Paint too much or you underpaint, which does not give you accurate sharp edges on your subject.

And sticking to the same point I have also seen a lot of guys say and show this on YouTube that while making the selection of your Main Subject if you have some Colours spilling in the Subject like for e.g. Lets say the subject is standing at a Place and the colours from the background are also kind of merging/bleeding in his hair, And when you are in refine selection and if you select only mask the cut out image may still have some Colours Bleeding in his Hair so in such a case New Layer with Mask in Refine is a better option. This may not be possible when I manually add a mask right ? So isn’t that show stopper ? What do you do in such a Scenario ? Or that kind of Auto detection does not really matter ? 

Like for e.g. what Olivio suggests in this Video starting at 1:58

 

 

[augustya]

23 hours ago, augustya said:

Hi Guys,

I wanted to know what do you guys think on this I have seen a lot of Experts, Pro in Affinity Photo recommend and advocate this while making a selection these experts do not recommend to use the Refine Option in Affinity Photo instead they strongly suggest to add a Mask and then after the Mask gets added then tidy up and refine mask manually. If required Alt+Click on the Mask which gives a Black and White View and work on it.

But I have a problem here, I tried it is it a very workable option ? I don’t think so for a couple of and let’s say if you have missed some Foreground, to select the missed part you can just use the paint brush there and it does the rest of selection for you, like it fills up the rest of things for you, same for the background, that kind of Auto detection is not Possible when you add a mask and try to work upon tidying up that Mask right?

Guys would appreciate if someone can help me crack this Matrix Puzzle !

[Callum]

Hi Augustya,

I'm not sure if I understand your question, if you have manually applied a mask to a layer you can always select the original layer make a selection from that and then select the mask layer to have that selection applied to your mask. It would be handy to see an example of your workflow showing where you get stuck I should be able to advise the best technique to use.

Thanks
C

[augustya]

7 minutes ago, Callum said:

Hi Augustya,

I'm not sure if I understand your question, if you have manually applied a mask to a layer you can always select the original layer make a selection from that and then select the mask layer to have that selection applied to your mask. It would be handy to see an example of your workflow showing where you get stuck I should be able to advise the best technique to use.

Thanks
C

Hi Callum,

I am facing the same problems as shown in the above video, a lot of my selections show the same problems that Olivia Sarikas in his above video at 1:58 shows.

A lot of times after the initial Selection the area near the selection gets pixelated, Smoky, some area not selected etc. It is a lot of work going back and forth to tidy up the Mask in refine tool. Exactly how it looks in this video at 1:58 so these Pro guys say better way to go about it is after the selection manually add the Mask and tidy it up.

Have you watched this video yet @ 1:58

https://youtu.be/asB45IXGmQw

[augustya]

7 minutes ago, Callum said:

if you have manually applied a mask to a layer you can always select the original layer make a selection from that and then select the mask layer to have that selection applied to your mask.

Wouldn't that be doing double work ? Why not do it right in the first instance ?

[Ron P.]

Double work? It depends on the situation. If you're working on a project and need to get very precise selections, then no, it's not. It's doing whatever is necessary to get the results you need.

Olivio's techniques is a good one to use. Oh, and he didn't create that technique, it's been around for years. PS users will or at least use to, use that technique.

Do it right in the first instance? What is right? You're trying to apply a subjective point of view. Someone that has mastered using the Refine Selection of course will think that method is the right one. However those that use the technique demonstrated by Olivio, think that is the right one. How about creating a selection from a shape or curve? Is that the right way? There's situations where using a shape to get a sharp, distinct, defined edge works better, then using the Refine, or the Masking and painting in/out.

 

[kaffeeundsalz]

I also don't understand your question, but I'll try to work through your post.

On 2/7/2022 at 12:46 PM, augustya said:

But I have a problem here, I tried it is it a very workable option

Well, if you tried it, you should be able to tell for yourself. If the technique works for you, use it. If it doesn't, then don't.

On 2/7/2022 at 12:46 PM, augustya said:

I don’t think so for a couple of and let’s say if you have missed some Foreground, to select the missed part you can just use the paint brush there and it does the rest of selection for you, like it fills up the rest of things for you, same for the background, that kind of Auto detection is not Possible when you add a mask and try to work upon tidying up that Mask right?

In theory, yes, but the workflow shown in the video is specifically tailored to image content where these automatic tools don't work reliably. This is thoroughly explained in the video, including the factors that make smart selection algorithms fail. Please watch the introduction.

On 2/7/2022 at 12:46 PM, augustya said:

When I tried it my problem was, when you click on the Mask and you wanna tidy up things you don’t know what are the edges of the subject (Lets say if you are selecting a subject) so either you Paint too much or you underpaint, which does not give you accurate sharp edges on your subject.

This is all specific to the very image you're trying to work on. You need soft brushes for blurry edges and hard brushes for sharp edges. And if you create an initial mask and paint back in too much, you can of course very clearly see which parts of the image belong to the foreground or to the background. But again, the video covers all of this in much detail, so I'm not entirely sure what your questions are.

On 2/7/2022 at 12:46 PM, augustya said:

And when you are in refine selection and if you select only mask the cut out image may still have some Colours Bleeding in his Hair so in such a case New Layer with Mask in Refine is a better option.

Again, I'm unsure if I got you right, but where this advice comes from probably is that in Affinity Photo, image content is treated differently depending on how you output the selection refinement. If Output is set to "New layer" or "New layer with mask", Photo applies additional processing to reduce color bleed from the background into the selection which makes these output options better suitable for cutting out or compositing. This is covered in more detail in the help files. It may sound repetitive, but the experience with all these techniques depends on the image content. With some images, they'll work. With some, they won't. It's always been that way.

 

[augustya]

22 minutes ago, kaffeeundsalz said:

 

This is all specific to the very image you're trying to work on. You need soft brushes for blurry edges and hard brushes for sharp edges. And if you create an initial mask and paint back in too much, you can of course very clearly see which parts of the image belong to the foreground or to the background. But again, the video covers all of this in much detail, so I'm not entirely sure what your questions are.

 

As you see in this screenshot this is exactly the problem I face when I try to select a subject, a person and when trying to remove the background.

So what would be the best option if I want to select a person in a picture ?

[R C-R]

2 hours ago, augustya said:

So what would be the best option if I want to select a person in a picture ?

As has been mentioned, that depends on the specific image you are working with. There is no "one size fits all" option that will work for every image; in fact, some may require using several different techniques to get the results you are looking for.

For example, as explained near the start of the video, when the colors of the subject you want to isolate & the background are too similar, much more work may be required than if they are very different.

[augustya]

6 minutes ago, R C-R said:

For example, as explained near the start of the video, when the colors of the subject you want to isolate & the background are too similar, much more work may be required than if they are very different.

But exactly for such an image he says that instead of going through refine tool a better option would be to directly add a mask without going into Refine. Otherwise it would be a lot of back and forth and tiring job that one would have to do in tidying up the Mask. Which would be like pulling your hair it would be so tiring and boring.

[walt.farrell]

25 minutes ago, augustya said:

But exactly for such an image he says that instead of going through refine tool a better option would be to directly add a mask without going into Refine. Otherwise it would be a lot of back and forth and tiring job that one would have to do in tidying up the Mask. Which would be like pulling your hair it would be so tiring and boring.

Ok, so do it.

What's the problem?

[R C-R]

25 minutes ago, augustya said:

But exactly for such an image he says that instead of going through refine tool a better option would be to directly add a mask without going into Refine.

Yes. That is exactly why there is no "one size fits all" answer to what you asked. There is no one best option for all images.

If you post one that is giving you problems, someone may be able to help you with it, but please keep in mind that for a different image that may not be the best solution.

[R C-R]

6 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

What's the problem?

I think it is that @augustya is looking for something that does not exist, that being a simple, quick & easy method to separate the subject from the background that always works regardless of the image content, & is never tedious or 'boring.'

[augustya]

8 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

Ok, so do it.

What's the problem?

What I am trying to find out from you guys here is how do I decide ? when do I take a call? how do I take a call? that in this particular scenario a better option is to use refine tool and in this particular image you can directly add a mask ? is there any key pointer which helps anyone decide on which way to go ?

[carl123]

56 minutes ago, augustya said:

how do I take a call? that in this particular scenario a better option is to use refine tool and in this particular image you can directly add a mask ? is there any key pointer which helps anyone decide on which way to go ?

Yes,

If you use the Refine "tool" and don't get a clean refinement but instead get a refinement as shown in the video (and below) then that is the time to consider switching to the masking method

But if your use of the Refine "tool" is on a high-resolution image with good contrast between what you want to refine and the refinement process produces a good initial result there is no real need or major benefit in considering switching to the masking method.

 

[augustya]

2 hours ago, carl123 said:

Yes,

If you use the Refine "tool" and don't get a clean refinement but instead get a refinement as shown in the video (and below) then that is the time to consider switching to the masking method

But if your use of the Refine "tool" is on a high-resolution image with good contrast between what you want to refine and the refinement process produces a good initial result there is no real need or major benefit in considering switching to the masking method.

 

Well explained Thanks !

But My other worry about using the Direct Masking Method is, I mean is it something with Practice that comes in or how ? Like for e.g. the Advantages that I mentioned about using Refine Tool where the Affinity Photo Algorithm does the rest of filling up and selecting the foreground or background as the case maybe, But while using direct masking method you cant really see where exactly are the edges of the subject you are selecting, All these challenges still remain right ? So how do I handle these two challenges ?

[kaffeeundsalz]

2 hours ago, augustya said:

But while using direct masking method you cant really see where exactly are the edges of the subject you are selecting, All these challenges still remain right ?

Two things. First: There's also the Quick Mask mode ("Edit Selection as Layer") which basically lets you paint your selection with brushes while showing the same red overlay that you're used to from the Refine Selection dialog. Unfortunately, this works with selections only and not with existing masks, but you can load your mask as a selection and create a new one after painting. Also, what I told you in my first answer still holds: If you paint in just a bit from the background, the edges of the subject become clearly visible and you could work your way back until only the subject is selected. Second: Sometimes what counts with selections is credibility rather than accuracy. In some cases, it just doesn't matter whether you managed to follow the exact contour of, say, a person's clothing as long as your selection result looks natual. In other cases, hair selection is so difficult that it looks better to manually paint in some artifical strands of hair instead of trying to select them from the original photo. Don't try to be overly precise when what you got is already quite realistic.

[augustya]

44 minutes ago, Hens said:

Effort.
Here's a crude example as how I mostly do it.
You can however leave out the refine part and duplicate the pixel selection and add a mask to that new pixellayer and use that instead

 

Yours is certainly a very unique way of doing things, selecting things, that I have come across, haven't seen anybody do that yet.

So from what I saw you added a Recolour adjustment and changed the colour to a very dark distinct colour which makes it distinguish between the original colour of the background and the colour added by Recolour adjustment right ? and then Paint in black to Mask it and the again paint in white to reveal the overpainted colours in Black right ? to make the edges sharp right ?

This is a good idea but then again the thing that you are trying to do at 1:21 and at 1:56 to sharpen the Edges by the relevant brush.

That is the struggling part where I struggle.

[augustya]

44 minutes ago, kaffeeundsalz said:

Two things. First: There's also the Quick Mask mode ("Edit Selection as Layer") which basically lets you paint your selection with brushes while showing the same red overlay that you're used to from the Refine Selection dialog. Unfortunately, this works with selections only and not with existing masks, but you can load your mask as a selection and create a new one after painting.

But when you go into Quick Mask, it just creates a Mask over your image but does it get added to the image ? then how can you load mask from selection ? didn’t understand this ?

44 minutes ago, kaffeeundsalz said:

Also, what I told you in my first answer still holds: If you paint in just a bit from the background, the edges of the subject become clearly visible and you could work your way back until only the subject is selected.

But this is not possible to do when you are in the refine tool as whenever you select Overlay or Black Matte or White Matte or Black&White it shows your selection with your Background Masked then how can you see the Background if you overpaint it and then you wanna paint in Black to hide the overpainted parts of the edges and make it sharp ?

[kaffeeundsalz]

43 minutes ago, augustya said:

But when you go into Quick Mask, it just creates a Mask over your image but does it get added to the image ? then how can you load mask from selection ? didn’t understand this ?

When you go into Quick Mask mode, you can use the Paint Brush tool to manipulate the current selection. As I wrote in my previous post, it doesn't work with mask layers. Quick Mask mode creates selections, not masks. To create a mask from a selection, add a new Mask layer while having an active selection. To load a mask as a selection, Cmd+Click the Mask layer in the layers panel (on Windows, it's Ctrl+Click i think).

[kaffeeundsalz]

1 hour ago, augustya said:

But this is not possible to do when you are in the refine tool as whenever you select Overlay or Black Matte or White Matte or Black&White it shows your selection with your Background Masked then how can you see the Background if you overpaint it and then you wanna paint in Black to hide the overpainted parts of the edges and make it sharp ?

If you use Overlay, you can see the background for sure because the overlay is semi-transparent. If even that doesn't make masked/unmaskes image parts apparent enough for you to see, I can't help you. You do need at least some kind of visual representation of a mask, otherwise you wouldn't have any clue about how it currently looks, right? The key to a good mask is of course to toggle between the preview modes as needed so you get a good overview of how your mask works under different conditions. For example, "Black Matte" lets you evaluate other aspects of your mask's quality than e.g. "Black and White" does and vice versa.