Chapter page and decorations

[Petar Petrenko]

Hi,

I’ve just got an interesting idea of “removing” headers and footers on an opening chapter page. As you can see in the attachment picture, there are 2 black stripes defined in “Text Styles > Paragraph > Decorations” used to cover headers/footers (of course, the color has to be replaced with white) and text “Chapter 1” lowered down with “Space Before”.
But, there is a small “problem” which I would like to be solved if possible by Affinity Team. If client wants to reposition the chapter title (with space before) then decorations follow the changes and the headers/footers become visible and they have to be adjusted, too. So, the question is:  would you be so kind and make decorations position to be independent from Space before/after changes?

 Just to mention, there is a “bug” in Text Styles. As you can see there is selected paragraph style in “Text Styles” panel but its name is not displayed because of the “Use Space Before > Only At Column Top”.

[MikeTO]

Instead of using a white box to obscure headers or footers on the first page of a chapter you should consider using a separate master page.

[Petar Petrenko]

Yes, I know that, but I'm trying to avoid them because if you add/delete text the chapter will start on other page and you'll have to adjust master pages. This way you don't have to.

[Old Bruce]

30 minutes ago, NNN said:

Yes, I know that, but I'm trying to avoid them because if you add/delete text the chapter will start on other page and you'll have to adjust master pages. This way you don't have to.

People have been asking for the ability to apply a Master Page to any page with a particular Paragraph Style, in this case it would be your "Chapter 1" Paragraph Style. I would like that over this. However I will continue to apply the Chapter Start Master Page that I make. I apply them by going through the text reaching for Chapter 1 paragraph style and then manually applying the Master Page. Not great but it works, until it doesn't. As you pointed out, we will add subtract text. Sigh, Eternal Vigilance.

[Petar Petrenko]

20 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

People have been asking for the ability to apply a Master Page to any page with a particular Paragraph Style...

Yes, I'm aware of that, but while waiting for it to come, I think my idea is worth to be considered.

[Old Bruce]

Your idea would work for some of the stuff I do but it would fail for other work. But hey, more tools is better. And being ideas and software they don't take up any physical space .

[MikeTO]

22 hours ago, NNN said:

Yes, I know that, but I'm trying to avoid them because if you add/delete text the chapter will start on other page and you'll have to adjust master pages. This way you don't have to.

Yes, but only if the entire book is one big story. I recommend creating a separate story (series of linked text frames) for each chapter. In a nutshell:

1. Create masters for your chapter titles and for regular pages
2. Apply the chapter title master to the first page/spread of a chapter.
3. Add one more page/spread and apply the regular master to it.
4. Paste the text for the chapter into the first text frame.
5. Shift click the overset text indicator on the last text frame and Publisher will create as many pages of linked frames as required.
6. Add another page/spread at the end of the document for the next chapter title and apply the chapter title master to it.
7. Add one more page/spread and apply the regular master to it.
8. Paste the text for the next chapter into the first blank text frame.
9. Shift click the overset text indicator on the last text frame and Publisher will create as many pages of linked frames as required.
10. Repeat 6-9 as required.

If you later add or remove pages in a book configured this way the assigned masters will stick with the pages they're applied to.

[Petar Petrenko]

21 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

Yes, but only if the entire book is one big story. I recommend creating a separate story (series of linked text frames) for each chapter. In a nutshell:

1. Create masters for your chapter titles and for regular pages
2. Apply the chapter title master to the first page/spread of a chapter.
3. Add one more page/spread and apply the regular master to it.
4. Paste the text for the chapter into the first text frame.
5. Shift click the overset text indicator on the last text frame and Publisher will create as many pages of linked frames as required.
6. Add another page/spread at the end of the document for the next chapter title and apply the chapter title master to it.
7. Add one more page/spread and apply the regular master to it.
8. Paste the text for the next chapter into the first blank text frame.
9. Shift click the overset text indicator on the last text frame and Publisher will create as many pages of linked frames as required.
10. Repeat 6-9 as required.

If you later add or remove pages in a book configured this way the assigned masters will stick with the pages they're applied to.

Hi MikeTO,

I have 30+ years of experience in DTP. Does it qualifies me of knowing this "trick"?

I've done hundreds of books, magazines, brochures... Single story, multiple stories books, multiple files organized as "book"... PageMaker, QuarkXPress, InDesign (last 10+ years) and now Publisher, but nothing seriously because last few years I'm orinted toward books and Publisher lacks foot/end notes (waiting for them to appear in v. 2.0, hopefully). I think this enhancment I am asking for will speed up the process a little bit.

[MikeTO]

20 hours ago, NNN said:

I have 30+ years of experience in DTP. Does it qualifies me of knowing this "trick"?

I've done hundreds of books, magazines, brochures... Single story, multiple stories books, multiple files organized as "book"... PageMaker, QuarkXPress, InDesign (last 10+ years) and now Publisher, but nothing seriously because last few years I'm orinted toward books and Publisher lacks foot/end notes (waiting for them to appear in v. 2.0, hopefully). I think this enhancment I am asking for will speed up the process a little bit.

I was just pointing out how to do it in Publisher without causing yourself grief.

IMO, having the master page dependent on the presence of a paragraph formatted with a style is unfeasible. Would that master override all of the masters already applied to a page or would it be applied in addition to the potentially multiple masters already applied to that page? Would that master be at the top or bottom of the layer stack? (The user should never be able to override this since the master would keep floating between pages.) What if there were 10 paragraphs on one page each with a different master page applied automatically, would all 10 masters be applied to the page or would just the first or last one be applied? That might sound silly but what if there were 2 such styles one and the user intended them to be applied together but due to the way the text was edited they wound up on successive pages. What if some of the applied masters were portrait and some were landscape, or some were A4 and some were A3?

Most of this could be avoided by a different approach. What you really want is the ability to insert a section break and then specify in the section manager which masters should be applied to the first page/spread in that section and whether those masters override or add to the manually applied masters. That still leaves the issue of the layer stack order but it's a much simpler approach.

Publisher has a brilliant approach to multiple masters and layers but it makes implementing a robust chapter/section feature more complex than in older apps. I'm sure Serif has a plan but until then I'll just break the text flow between chapters and avoid all the issues.

[Petar Petrenko]

Hi MikeTO,

as you can see from my initial post, I didn't mentioned master pages at all.
Section break connected with paragraph style would be very appreciated if Affinity decide to implement it.
What I really want is just a little enhancement to a paragraph style as mentioned.

[MikeTO]

23 hours ago, NNN said:

as you can see from my initial post, I didn't mentioned master pages at all.

Apologies, I was confused by somebody else's reply to you

[Wosven]

I'm in the same situations @NNN — years of using differents apps, and using this trick when appropriate. Since I'd rather have a one story book (linked frames), that cut them in separate linked ones for each chapter.

It all depends of the book, but with only text books, this method is faster and less prone to errors. And you don't need to check ±130 chapter head or less, manytime each time you add some modifications, in the text or the design. Especially if you've got a huge amount of sometimes large footnotes. Scripting is a plus for this type of work on books.

Working with separate chapters is fine if you have the final text from the start... or few chapters, but it never happens with live authors and proof readers

[Petar Petrenko]

30 minutes ago, Wosven said:

Since I'd rather have a one story book (linked frames)

If this is a case, I merge them in Word.

I hope that Affinity will add (in near future maybe) linking text documents like Wordsflow from Em Software. InDesign has something like that, but unfinished.