Artificial Inteligence

[Petar Petrenko]

Hi,

can we expect some of the features in Photo to support AI in near future?

[Andy05]

1 hour ago, NNN said:

Hi,

can we expect some of the features in Photo to support AI in near future?

I'm not sure if I'd like to see (m)any of them in the Affinity apps to be honest. Developing AI driven technologies costs a lot of manpower. I'd rather see that being used for some of the basic functions, which Affinity lacks—even after several years of users complaining about it. As for AI features, there are dedicated tools for that. Sometimes it's better to use multiple apps within one's workflow rather than praying for an all-in-one solution.

[firstdefence]

Personally I'm against AI, whats the point in doing something if AI can do it for you, kind of takes the fun out of the creative process and the results are always that good.

[John Rostron]

My guess is  that the answer would be "No" in the short term and "Maybe" in the long term. I say this because of the effort involved in developing an effective AI module. This would involve:

• A large corpus of test images,
• A set of algorithms to apply to any image to effect the desired outcome,
• A set of criteria to assess the effectiveness of an algorithm,
• A mechanism of combining the various results to optimise the final image.

It is this last mechanism that is likely to be the stumbling block.

John

[78deluxe]

27 minutes ago, firstdefence said:

Personally I'm against AI, whats the point in doing something if AI can do it for you, kind of takes the fun out of the creative process and the results are always that good.

There are many monotonus tasks that AI can speed up the workflow so you can spend more time on the more creative aspects of a project.

Single click selection of a subject for example.  This uses AI to accomplish.  Do you really feel that spending an hour on an extremely complicated selection and refinement process is time well spent, when it could be done in a single click?  Does it take away artistic merit of your final image if you made the selection manually or of the computer assisted in the process?  

AI as individual adjustable tools are fine with me.  

That said, I think Affinity needs to focus on adding to the core of the product (and make sure to squash any bugs along with way for stability), but AI in different capacities is here to stay and I expect it to continue to improve and provide addiitonal value to people that do not have unlimited time.  

[Alfred]

25 minutes ago, 78deluxe said:

Does it take away artistic merit of your final image if you made the selection manually or of the computer assisted in the process?

We already have a Selection Brush Tool for computer-assisted selection.

[Andy05]

25 minutes ago, 78deluxe said:

Do you really feel that spending an hour on an extremely complicated selection and refinement process is time well spent, when it could be done in a single click?

That's actually a good example, for what AI can't do very well (in a professional workflow). The more complex and complicated the selection is, the more AI fails in this task. There are countless of examples at YouTube, which prove even dedicated (and expensive) masking tools not even close as good as manual masking.

[78deluxe]

Just now, Alfred said:

We already have a Selection Brush Tool for computer-assisted selection.

It isn't anywhere close to what some other "AI" driven options can provide today (let alone tomorrow).  But yes, I'm aware of the Selection brush tool that was developed with some context aware parimeters working in the background.

[Alfred]

10 minutes ago, 78deluxe said:

context aware

Thanks for reminding me that we also have inpainting (known in certain other software products as ‘content-aware fill’).

[78deluxe]

3 minutes ago, Alfred said:

Thanks for reminding me that we also have inpainting (known in certain other software products as ‘content-aware fill’).

Yeah, inpainting is a lifesaver.  Love that thing.

[Old Bruce]

4 minutes ago, 78deluxe said:

Yeah, inpainting is a lifesaver.  Love that thing.

Except when it fails. 

[Alfred]

2 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

Except when it fails. 

Much if the time it works very well, but the ability to delineate the source area would be a vast improvement.

[IanSG]

2 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

Except when it fails. 

That's like saying your spanner didn't work when you should have used a screwdriver 😉

[IanSG]

1 minute ago, Alfred said:

Much if the time it works very well, but the ability to delineate the source area would be a vast improvement.

Isn't that controlled by the brush size?

[Old Bruce]

1 minute ago, IanSG said:

That's like saying your spanner didn't work when you should have used a screwdriver 😉

If I have a nut and a bolt to undo a screwdriver won't help at all. I will choose a metric wrench of the correct size but if the nut is not metric (I am in Canada) or has the corners bashed out of shape then I will have to use an adjustable wrench. On occasion I have had to resort to using a pair of pipe-wrenches and sometimes a hacksaw has been necessary. Never will I use a screwdriver.

[Alfred]

1 minute ago, IanSG said:

Isn't that controlled by the brush size?

The brush size just controls the size of the source area, doesn’t it? I’d like to be able to draw around part of the image so that, for example, I know I won’t include leaves from a patch of grass or cracks in a brick wall.

[IanSG]

9 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

If I have a nut and a bolt to undo a screwdriver won't help at all.

My point exactly!  The inpainting tool, like any tool, has its limitations and sometimes it's simply not the right one.  There are definately times when I've used the inpainting tool badly or inappropriately, but I don't think it's ever "failed".

[IanSG]

19 minutes ago, Alfred said:

The brush size just controls the size of the source area, doesn’t it? I’d like to be able to draw around part of the image so that, for example, I know I won’t include leaves from a patch of grass or cracks in a brick wall.

Good point!

[Old Bruce]

15 minutes ago, IanSG said:

... The inpainting tool, like any tool, has its limitations and sometimes it's simply not the right one.  ...

I have never been able to find out where the line is between acceptable and unacceptable images for the tool to work. I have resorted so often to using the Stamp tool that I have pretty much given up on the Inpainting tool. 

[firstdefence]

3 hours ago, 78deluxe said:

Does it take away artistic merit of your final image if you made the selection manually or of the computer assisted in the process? 

I think automation to a level of little or zero input is the death of creativity. In taking a look at AI I have found the results to be less than in many cases, AI isn't that smart and is rudimentary at best, it's a gimmick more than a practical solution to serious workflows. You can achieve better bespoke results from macro/action creation and knowledge, what AI does is remove that learned experience and subsequently that knowledge. As AI develops both in camera's and in software, when does your input become null, in effect you end up being superfluous to the process.

The camera will eventually do it all, you just become the carrier of the device and it is the device that decides how the image will look and the creative process will be made before you fully click the button, you become void or at least, less than, in the creative process.

There is no stopping AI but it should not be allowed to take over, else whats the point.

[R C-R]

1 hour ago, firstdefence said:

I think automation to a level of little or zero input is the death of creativity. In taking a look at AI I have found the results to be less than in many cases, AI isn't that smart and is rudimentary at best, it's a gimmick more than a practical solution to serious workflows.

As long as there is an undo function there is no harm in trying out various AI based features, particularly as a starting point for further manual tweaking.

That said, I do think it still has a long way to go before it can be considered a viable alternative to what a skilled human can accomplish.