Strange colour representation (and different from Lightroom)

[Rincewind]

As I wrote before, the problem occurs with all (?) files. I just had the example at hand and it was publicly available. It really shouldn't matter where the profile comes from either. If the industry standard can handle it, Affinity should be able to as well. The file is also specifically meant for matching the monitor (in the photo exposure context).

[NotMyFault]

Could you please provide a screenshot of this test image, rendered by Photo and one of the other apps. Please use full screen captures at identical positons, zoom level 100%.

https://www.burosch.de/testbilder-uebersicht/337-audio-video-equipment-check.html

The advantage of this image is that it contains numerically defined colors, so we can directly check if it is correct (for all apps).

[thomaso]

On 11/19/2021 at 7:02 PM, Rincewind said:

I did some more tests on this and I think the following shows the problem quite well one more time.

I have now in parallel opened the test file

Just in case: here on mac this magenta swatch shows in APub's Photo Persona the values of your 3 other apps. By the way: Though switching the monitor profile in macOS preferences does obviously change the visual appearance, it neither alters the measured value in the image nor reflects the difference in a screenshot taken in that different profile in the same way as it appears different; switching the profile back makes the different screenshot appear more like the one before the monitor switch.

[Rincewind]

5 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

Could you please provide a screenshot of this test image, rendered by Photo and one of the other apps. Please use full screen captures at identical positons, zoom level 100%.

https://www.burosch.de/testbilder-uebersicht/337-audio-video-equipment-check.html

The advantage of this image is that it contains numerically defined colors, so we can directly check if it is correct (for all apps).

No, unfortunately not. I don't spend 15€ just to prove with another example that Serif has to do something...

[v_kyr]

See also related:

• X-Rite - Profile Version ICC v2 or ICC v4
• ICC - Why use ICC v4 profiles?
• ICC - Why is the media white point of a display profile always D50?
• ICC - Making v2 profiles
• ICC - Incorrectly-constructed v2 profiles
• ICC’s D50 vs sRGB D65 problems
• ArgyllCMS - Absolute to media Relative Transform Space matrix (see "The problem" there)
• C1 - Chromatic adaptation
• ... etc.

[NotMyFault]

3 hours ago, BofG said:

To point the finger of blame at the profile/OS/anything else makes no logical sense.

Nobody is blaming or finger pointing.

We simply try to investigate what causes the issue, and find a solution or workaround. 

This D50 white point issue is one of the rare exceptions where Affinity Apps seem to be actually buggy. In 90% of claimed color profile bugs the issue is on other aspects, like corrupt color profiles, mismatch between color profile and image, using device profiles as document color profile, or user error. 

We do not investigate to blame anybody.

2 hours ago, v_kyr said:

See also related:

That was exactly I tried to remember (but failed). Thank you.

Here a link to a related issue rated as bug by mods.

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by NotMyFault
Added related bug report

[v_kyr]

See also other related forum postings:

• ICC profile version 2 or 4 and the color management pipeline?
• Issue with sRGB export profiles in Affinity Photo (v2/v4 profile mixups)
• ... etc.

AFAIK the Affinity suite is LittleCMS based and that CMS should usually support the whole ICC 4.3 spec nowadays.

[NotMyFault]

6 minutes ago, BofG said:

It's just a turn of phrase, kind of like "why keep looking". Not intended to cause offence to anyone.

Was it not already shown that it's down to Affinity not correctly interpreting the monitor profile?

Maybe i failed to recognize. It is clear once mods reply and assign a tag with bug id, or move it to the bug section.

And in many cases i try to understand what actually is causing the issue, and what workarounds are possible.

[Rincewind]

10 hours ago, BofG said:

As the OP has seen, the profile works fine with everything except Affinity. To point the finger of blame at the profile/OS/anything else makes no logical sense.

That was my thought exactly.

10 hours ago, BofG said:

To the OP - can you re-calibrate your monitor and choose to output a v4 profile instead? That version defaults to D50 and should I believe work for you.

I have now recalibrated the monitor and created a v4 profile. (The X-Rite software by the way recommends using v2 for compatibility with third-party software).
The differences are almost gone (+/-1 in RGB values), now Chrome has more of a borderline deviation.
My conclusion would be: Use of a v4 profile is suitable as a workaround, the comprehensive solution would rather be a bugfix in Affinity Photo (and maybe Designer and Publisher if they share the code part). With the v2 profile, the match (apart from Affinity's Photo) was actually better or even perfect.

Thank you for pointing out the connection between v4 profiles and D50 white point! I think the bug now should be sufficiently narrowed down for a developer.

Now it only remains to hope that Serif will finally take care of the issue. Unfortunately, judging from recent reactions, I don't have many hopes. The forum reminds me a lot of Github issue discussions lately, only there it's about open source and everyone can work out and contribute bug fixes themselves...

[lacerto]

I just tried creating v2 profiles with i1Profiler (a couple of years old version) first with D65 and then with D50 illuminant, and could not make any meaningful difference when viewing the same images in Photoshop (CS6) and Affinity Photo (latest version), on Windows. It is hard to see this as a device profile issue, but it is hard so see this as anything else, either. I do not have LR installed on this computer though (or a later version of PS), so cannot compare directly.

[Rincewind]

Does anyone have any idea how we can get someone from Serif to take a look at this?

[deekay]

Hey Rincewind,

I'm having the same issue and replied to your bug report with example screenshots. 

Thanks for dealing with this and please let us know if there's a solution out there.

Best wishes,

 

 

[R C-R]

1 hour ago, BofG said:

There's mention in there of another colour profile issue of white displaying as yellow. It's dismissed in a fluff of hand waving as a bad profile that affects all colour managed apps.

Actually, it says "many colour managed apps," not all of them.

1 hour ago, BofG said:

Anyway, the article provides no detail of what a "bad profile" contains, and gives no proof at all that a profile that gives yellow in Affinity does the same in all other managed applications.

Again, they did not say it affects all color managed apps. But even if you just click the PS Google link, there are many hits that explain the problem in PS is caused by a "bad" monitor profile or an uncalibrated monitor. 

[NotMyFault]

33 minutes ago, BofG said:

"..specific display profiles that are installed by default for various displays. They are defective in regards to their compatibility with colour management solutions and do not work properly"

I'm interested to see how you twist that to mean defective profiles can work properly with some colour management solutions.

How about we hold Serif to task to explain their assertions instead of trying to twist words and deflect the question?

I made request to remove/filter those useless and confusing profiles. Your vote added there appreciated.

 

[R C-R]

1 hour ago, BofG said:

I'm interested to see how you twist that to mean defective profiles can work properly with some colour management solutions.

All I am saying is under "Whites look yellow" in the Spotlight article there is this:

Quote

This issue is not exclusive to the Affinity software: it actually happens with many colour managed apps...

 

[Rincewind]

On 12/15/2021 at 6:11 PM, deekay said:

I'm having the same issue and replied to your bug report with example screenshots. 

Thanks for dealing with this and please let us know if there's a solution out there.

Thank you! Sometimes I doubt that I have really posted the issue. This is the first problem that Serif really seems to want to say NOTHING about. I simply can't understand...

On 12/15/2021 at 8:33 PM, BofG said:

All this is to say don't hold your breath for a detailed answer from Serif on this issue.

P.S. I do really like Serif and Affinity, please don't take me off your Christmas list for this

I also like Affinity products a lot and have convinced quite a few people in the past to ditch the Adobe subscription. (And I wasn't even on the Christmas list!)
But this is slowly becoming just unprofessional....
I just hope they are working on a solution and don't want to make hasty false statements.
Whereas it would still be much better to say ANYTHING than nothing at all... 😞

[Rincewind]

5 hours ago, BofG said:

Part of the problem might be that the apps use a third-party colour management system (Little CMS). How much knowledge the team have of the internal workings of that system could play a part.

Quite possibly, but in my view openness would be the better solution in this case. Maybe someone can even help Serif with the problem...
Apropos, I made another comparison and included GIMP, since it uses LittleCMS. Adobe Lightroom, Irfanview and GIMP have exactly the same colour reproduction, Affinity Photo is off.
I would have been surprised by a general error of this kind in LittleCMS anyway, but this should still be an indication for a specific problem in Affinity Photo. So far I have yet to find a graphics software that gets it wrong too....

5 hours ago, BofG said:

I've looked with a profile inspector at a "yellow is white" profile from a user here and that profile didn't have any obvious issues. I don't have Adobe apps to test it with, but just that assertion the profile is faulty should be taken with a grain of salt until genuine proof is provided.

I also tend not to believe that my X-Rite software is not creating a correct profile, especially as every other software can handle it (at least every one I have tested).

[lacerto]

5 hours ago, Rincewind said:

I also tend not to believe that my X-Rite software is not creating a correct profile

If you use i1Profiler and iDisplay based HW, please state the version numbers of the software itself, and the XRD version, installed. I have created D50 an D65 versions profiles for my AdobeRGB+ displays but the profiles produced behave similarly with Photoshop (CS6) and Affinity apps. But whenever updating the software, it warns against updating in certain conditions, and because of not being sure, I have recently rejected updates.

I have Photo CC subscription on and could install the 2022 versions of PS and LR on my main desktop computer to test this but would like to know some details before trying this. Your issue does not seem to be related to coarse yellow vs. neutral white problems described above: the difference seems to be much more subtle (but nevertheless disturbing, as the same profile should produce practically identical results disregarding the app).

[Rincewind]

12 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

If you use i1Profiler and iDisplay based HW, please state the version numbers of the software itself, and the XRD version, installed.

I hope the double negative has not led to any confusion.... I cannot find any problem in any software (except Affinity Photo) I tried with the D50 monitor profile created by i1Profiler with default settings.

From Adobe, I only use the latest Classic version of Lightroom, because I actually want to escape the Adobe subscription with the tools from Affinity.

Anyway, if it helps you: iProfiler v3.3.0.13493 / XRD 3.1.119.139 (latest updates offered)

 

[Rincewind]

Happy New Year to all fellow strugglers

I hope that Serif finally will find time after the holidays to look into the problem.

Has perhaps someone else found out some new information?

[Rincewind]

So, finally a new major version of Affinity Photo is out!

Unfortunately the bug is still not fixed... What a bummer.

So, the upgrade would for now just be money thrown out of the window 😞