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Hello,

time goes on and the topics artificial intelligence and machine learning are bigger than ever. 

As I've seen what competitors of Affinity software can achieve with these techniques I think these are a must-have in the future, otherwise people using software without these have to waste a significant amount of time on unnecessary tasks or simply can not achieve similar results.

Especially Affinity Photo could need functions for manipulating photo data.
Machine-Learning supported tools like auto-crop subjects of a picture, changing the auto-recognized sky, next-level face manipulation like for facial hair or human age, ...

What impressed me the most is a tool that can change the season or time of day of a picture of the nature "in 10 seconds" by using so-called "Neural filters".

IMHO, I do not only see these tools as a nice-to-have for myself but I think it is essentially necessary to remain marketworthy in the future. And I can only imagine what effort in development needs to be done for such a thing. But I think it's worth releasing such features as software version 2.0 - so I can pay for the work of Affinity again. "2.0 - The big neural update"?

 

Whats your opinion on that?

Greetings

 

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I absolutely agree with you. There are not only full computer softwares can to all of these things you described, but also countless free phone apps can achieve similar results. And also I don't think all of us would mind if you charge additional upgrade fees to so called Affinity 2.0 because I still want to support the one time payment business mode.   

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  • 1 month later...
On 1/6/2022 at 1:33 AM, ashf said:

toy with only AI hype

Just write slogans such as Hyper, Neutral, Natural or AI on the product box, and some users are on top of happiness 🙂

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Does photoshop add hair and age to peoples faces with a click? All these things sound like you just want a mobile app like FaceApp. The change of the sky feature I can see, and have used a few times but it is hardly a must have app and I would have lived ok without it. Not sure any of these would be considered necessary, unless the market they are going after is like the countless apps that do these types of things already. I guess I am just not the market for this type of thing. I make my living with Adobe and outside of the sky change function in photoshop I have never wanted to age a face or change the season of a picture. When using stock images, like most people do, there are HUGE amounts of photos for every season that are amazing and readily available without photo manipulation. 

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36 minutes ago, wonderings said:

Does photoshop add hair and age to peoples faces with a click? All these things sound like you just want a mobile app like FaceApp. The change of the sky feature I can see, and have used a few times but it is hardly a must have app and I would have lived ok without it. Not sure any of these would be considered necessary, unless the market they are going after is like the countless apps that do these types of things already. I guess I am just not the market for this type of thing. I make my living with Adobe and outside of the sky change function in photoshop I have never wanted to age a face or change the season of a picture. When using stock images, like most people do, there are HUGE amounts of photos for every season that are amazing and readily available without photo manipulation. 

I just wrote down some single examples, there are MANY more.

Didn't know a mobile app like FaceApp can be used by professionals on a computer for retouche...

If you know Adobe software so well you do know the automated subject recognition. That function has so many benefits. And if you don't see this I don't know what you're even using the software for.

IMHO, there is no question about whether but when these functions come to affinity. Welcome to 2022.

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15 hours ago, Miratek said:

I just wrote down some single examples, there are MANY more.

Didn't know a mobile app like FaceApp can be used by professionals on a computer for retouche...

If you know Adobe software so well you do know the automated subject recognition. That function has so many benefits. And if you don't see this I don't know what you're even using the software for.

IMHO, there is no question about whether but when these functions come to affinity. Welcome to 2022.

Not everyone using Adobe is altering photos with photoshop. Photoshop is my least used app between Indesign and Illustrator. It may be for your field these are necessary things, for what I have seen dealing with designers and print for the last 20+ years is not representative of that. Of course this is anecdotal.

The FaceApp was in reference to wanting to age someone in Affinity Photos, that can be done simply with FaceApp which gives you a picture after you can take and continue to edit. I again don't see this sort of thing being used widely to want to age someone rather then use older models who have the look you want. 

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I have this exact suggestion, and was searching to see if someone already had posted a request. So... +1 from me.

I'm wrapping up a project that wouldn't be possible without Photoshop's Neural Filters, or something similar. It's a packaging project where the client has good product photos, but they're low resolution for the huge packaging size needed. They're also saved as JPEG, with the usual artefacts the format includes. Using the Super Zoom filter I've been able to bump them image resolution by 2x to 4x depending on the photo, and clean up the artefacts too, resulting on a photo that's usable.

Sure, there are 3rd party websites that do this for you. Buy you have to buy "credits" to process the images, raising the project cost for the client, and for no good reason. I have a perfectly fine GPU that's able to do it locally in a very acceptable time frame. Why spend more? There's also Topaz Labs offerings, but they are rather limited in scope when compared to Photoshop, especially if you take in account the price asked...

I think a good start for Affinity Photo would be an upscale, a denoise, and a JPEG artefact AI filters. These 3 would cover most cases.

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3 minutes ago, LCamachoDesign said:

Why spend more?

Do you think that when Serif will invest considerable resources in the acquisition of quality AI technologies, either through its own development or by purchasing technologies from third parties, that APSuite will be just as cheap?

Affinity Store: Affinity Suite (ADe, APh, APu) 1.10.5.1342.
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Dell OptiPlex 7060, i5-8500 3.00 GHz, 16 GB, Intel UHD Graphics 630, Dell P2417H 1920 x 1080.
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20 hours ago, Pšenda said:

Do you think that when Serif will invest considerable resources in the acquisition of quality AI technologies, either through its own development or by purchasing technologies from third parties, that APSuite will be just as cheap?

Pixelmator Photo for the iPad is $4 and includes machine learning upscaling and color corrections? And I'm pretty sure I got it for free at some point, so...

In any case, as mentioned by others, this is not a priority. There's other features that are much, much more urgent, like the Mesh Distort Live Filter I've been asking for years. This could be part of a paid 2.0 upgrade as others mentioned.

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1 hour ago, LCamachoDesign said:

Pixelmator Photo for the iPad is $4 and includes machine learning upscaling and color corrections? And I'm pretty sure I got it for free at some point, so...

I understand - but I thought you were talking about some quality technology.
But then it is strange that the "3rd party websites" you mentioned have you paid for something that is available completely free of charge (or rather why someone pays them for it when it is commonly available).

Affinity Store: Affinity Suite (ADe, APh, APu) 1.10.5.1342.
Windows 10 Pro, Version 21H1, Build 19043.1586.
Dell Latitude E5570, i5-6440HQ 2.60 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics 530, 1920 x 1080.
Dell OptiPlex 7060, i5-8500 3.00 GHz, 16 GB, Intel UHD Graphics 630, Dell P2417H 1920 x 1080.
Intel NUC5PGYH, Pentium N3700 2.40 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics, EIZO EV2456 1920 x 1200.

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  • 5 months later...
3 hours ago, oldskool978 said:

the fact affinity isn't responding to this thread is disheartening. 

Welcome to the Serif Affinity forums.

In case you're not aware, this section of the forums (Feature Requests & Suggestions) is for users (us) to express our wishes to Serif. Serif generally will not respond here, as a matter of policy, because they generally do not disclose their future development plans before the code is ready.

If they were to respond, it might be to ask for a clarification about what someone wants. But other than that, there would only be two possible "answers" to a request:

  • We do not plan to do that; or
  • We would like to do that someday.

Even if they said "we would like to do that someday", you would have no idea whether it would ever happen. It might not happen, or it might be 5 years from when they responded. Or longer.

 

-- Walt

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Please don't. What you seem to be requesting here is the kind of toyish one-click solution nonsense that almost killed Paintshop Pro a few years ago. You'd probably be surprised to learn that most working professionals and dedicated hobbyists are against this. Serious work involves control and precision; pixel-peeping, really. It's not about relying on some mythical algorithm to swap some faces or skies so your aunt can pat you on the head and exclaim that you sure know them computers. There are already quick and powerful ways to do selections in Affinity Photo and I'm sure that you're more than capable to learn them. And even if you just can't be bothered, there will always be apps like Luminar Neo or whatever. No need to request that higher-end software become something it was never meant to be.

Now, about so-called "AI"... Machine learning is not really AI, at least not in a meaningful sense. This is pure marketing speak, please don't fall for it. And look, machine learning has proven itself useful in some areas, most of them having something to do with reconstruction - denoising, upscale, temporal reconstruction in 3d rendering (DLSS, FSR 2). However, these are all things humans have never excelled at, stuff we've always been doing with algorithms. Computers are just better at pattern recognition, no question about that. What they can't replace, though, is the actual creative work people are doing with Photoshop or Affinity Photo. 

Now, should Serif develop some sophisticated machine-learned denoise algorithm? Well, they could, but why would they? There are already at least three great to amazing perpetual license options for that (DxO DeepPrime, Topaz Denoise, On1 NoNoise) and people in need of denoising already have one of these (hell, I have both DeepPrime and NoNoise. And Topaz is far from unaffordable, if I want to go for the overkill). And you see, none of these options are direct competitors to Serif. They can't replace a bitmap editor and two of them are actually available as plug-ins that people run directly from Affinity Photo. So, why enter late into a useless competition with DxO and Topaz and waste resources that you can put into developing your core product instead?

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12 minutes ago, Stun Damage said:

Please don't. What you seem to be requesting here is the kind of toyish one-click solution nonsense that almost killed Paintshop Pro a few years ago. You'd probably be surprised to learn that most working professionals and dedicated hobbyists are against this. Serious work involves control and precision; pixel-peeping, really. It's not about relying on some mythical algorithm to swap some faces or skies so your aunt can pat you on the head and exclaim that you sure know them computers. There are already quick and powerful ways to do selections in Affinity Photo and I'm sure that you're more than capable to learn them. And even if you just can't be bothered, there will always be apps like Luminar Neo or whatever. No need to request that higher-end software become something it was never meant to be.

Now, about so-called "AI"... Machine learning is not really AI, at least not in a meaningful sense. This is pure marketing speak, please don't fall for it. And look, machine learning has proven itself useful in some areas, most of them having something to do with reconstruction - denoising, upscale, temporal reconstruction in 3d rendering (DLSS, FSR 2). However, these are all things humans have never excelled at, stuff we've always been doing with algorithms. Computers are just better at pattern recognition, no question about that. What they can't replace, though, is the actual creative work people are doing with Photoshop or Affinity Photo. 

Now, should Serif develop some sophisticated machine-learned denoise algorithm? Well, they could, but why would they? There are already at least three great to amazing perpetual license options for that (DxO DeepPrime, Topaz Denoise, On1 NoNoise) and people in need of denoising already have one of these (hell, I have both DeepPrime and NoNoise. And Topaz is far from unaffordable, if I want to go for the overkill). And you see, none of these options are direct competitors to Serif. They can't replace a bitmap editor and two of them are actually available as plug-ins that people run directly from Affinity Photo. So, why enter late into a useless competition with DxO and Topaz and waste resources that you can put into developing your core product instead?

Wow, your hate against AI/machine learning is real here in this topic.

Look at Photoshop and its very useful (!) machine learning features – it can save so much time and also let you achieve better results than you could ever do with 20 times the expenditure of time.

It has nothing to do with 'toyish' things – its a must have for professional workflows in some areas.

 

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10 hours ago, Stun Damage said:

Please don't. What you seem to be requesting here is the kind of toyish one-click solution nonsense that almost killed Paintshop Pro a few years ago. You'd probably be surprised to learn that most working professionals and dedicated hobbyists are against this.

I noticed that Adobe has greatly changed their target in the ads of the latest couple years. Where looking at their graphic creation was pure joy before, they are now proposing some grudgy videos and images. Overexposed, badly-cut and fake-color videos. Bland urban backgrounds with the same character replicated as is. Skyes replaced with fake colors. People smiling at the phone while walking around proposed as "working".

One of their most recent series on Facebook shows pets over a uniform-tint background. Thousand of comments, all focusing on the pets and not on the technique. They have obviously saturated the falling professional market, and are pointing to a growing amateurish one, the type where you just want to put Santa Claus' hat on a dog with a click. (By the way, this is called artificial 'intelligence', ins't it?).

Hopefully, Serif will go for a niche of resisting professionals, still in need of fine-ceasel tools. Without wasting their forces after too many toys.

Paolo

 

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I don't doubt that one day photo apps will have just one big button. You load any old  image and the app will do everything for you to produce a masterpiece: one that looks just like thousands of others, because you have had no input yourself in processing or editing it.

I'm sure this would be a dream come true for many people; no need to learn any skills or for any artistic input, just press a button and let the AI do it for you! – For me, it would be a nightmare! 

There are certainly advantages to having some automation and computer aided effects/functions etc. Yes, it's great to be able to do things in seconds with a digital image, that would have taken hours (if they were possible at all!) in a traditional darkroom. The problem is getting the balance right! I think Affinity have it about right now, without dumbing down to suit people who don't want to have to learn anything, or do anything for themselves. There are apps out there, where you have little or no control and everything is decided for you, with no adjustments or fine tuning possible; the software decides for you what your picture should look like! If that's what you want, by all means use those apps. I really don't want APhoto to become one of them!

 

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6 minutes ago, PaulEC said:

I don't doubt that one day photo apps will have just one big button.

I have no doubt that one day these applications will disappear completely - because this functionality will be taken over directly by the camera. He decides what and how the user wanted to take a picture 🙂

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Dell OptiPlex 7060, i5-8500 3.00 GHz, 16 GB, Intel UHD Graphics 630, Dell P2417H 1920 x 1080.
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13 minutes ago, PaulEC said:

I don't doubt that one day photo apps will have just one big button. You load any old  image and the app will do everything for you to produce a masterpiece: one that looks just like thousands of others, because you have had no input yourself in processing or editing it.

I'm sure this would be a dream come true for many people; no need to learn any skills or for any artistic input, just press a button and let the AI do it for you! – For me, it would be a nightmare! 

There are certainly advantages to having some automation and computer aided effects/functions etc. Yes, it's great to be able to do things in seconds with a digital image, that would have taken hours (if they were possible at all!) in a traditional darkroom. The problem is getting the balance right! I think Affinity have it about right now, without dumbing down to suit people who don't want to have to learn anything, or do anything for themselves. There are apps out there, where you have little or no control and everything is decided for you, with no adjustments or fine tuning possible; the software decides for you what your picture should look like! If that's what you want, by all means use those apps. I really don't want APhoto to become one of them!

 

You got something COMPLETELY wrong here - AI support doens't mean clicking one big button or no need to learn any skills.

Machine Learning + AI lets you achieve better, faster and even more complex results while supporting the skill you have - not replace the needed skill. 

Y'all need to refresh your knowledge on the topic. AI/machine learning is needed for collaboration in affinity.


I don't know your mindset, but AI isn't taking over the world some day and is not replacing all humans. The AI dystopia mindset is far from reality.

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8 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

I have no doubt that one day these applications will disappear completely - because this functionality will be taken over directly by the camera. He decides what and how the user wanted to take a picture 🙂

No, there always will be human made techniques and art.

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21 minutes ago, Miratek said:

No, there always will be human made techniques and art.

I recommend following the context of the posts - that is, what the post to which you are responding responds.

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Windows 10 Pro, Version 21H1, Build 19043.1586.
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Dell OptiPlex 7060, i5-8500 3.00 GHz, 16 GB, Intel UHD Graphics 630, Dell P2417H 1920 x 1080.
Intel NUC5PGYH, Pentium N3700 2.40 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics, EIZO EV2456 1920 x 1200.

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22 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

I recommend following the context of the posts - that is, what the post to which you are responding responds.

What are you even talking about? I read everything and stated my opinion on that.

 

53 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

I have no doubt that one day these applications will disappear completely

53 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

this functionality will be taken over directly by the camera

So again for you: No, in my opinion there always will be human made techniques and art and that's why these application will never disappear and can't be automatically done by a camera.

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1 hour ago, Miratek said:

So again for you:

My post you are responding to is not about "general" photo processing applications, but only about the "one big button" application, as PaulEC writes.

    image.png.63d93be0e00c80637ba89347ab8faf97.png

 

1 hour ago, Miratek said:

What are you even talking about?

If you do not understand this relatively fundamental difference, then there is no need to continue the discussion.

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Dell OptiPlex 7060, i5-8500 3.00 GHz, 16 GB, Intel UHD Graphics 630, Dell P2417H 1920 x 1080.
Intel NUC5PGYH, Pentium N3700 2.40 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics, EIZO EV2456 1920 x 1200.

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