Farbpaletten können nicht gelöscht werden

[blackstone]

Hallo.

In den Affinity Programmen gibt es die Farbpaletten GRAUTÖNE und FARBEN.
Diese beiden Paletten kann man in den Programmen nicht löschen, warum?
Die Palette GRAUTÖNE ist aus allen 4 CMYK - Farben zusammengesetzt.

Auf meiner Website kann man sich eine Palette herunterladen, die nur aus Key-Werten zusammengesetzt ist.
https://magazin62.de/ressourcen

Gruß - Georg

[thomaso]

Wodurch wird das Löschen verhindert? (Screenshot?)

Findest du diese Palette evtl. als Datei in einem der Affinity Preferences Ordner, um sie dort zu löschen?

Ich habe diese default RGB-Gaupalette schon vor langer Zeit in einer früheren Programm-Version ohne Probleme oder Tricks gelöscht (bei der normalen sowie der Beta-Version) und durch reine K-Paletten ersetzt. Die gelöschte RGB-Version wird offenbar auch bei App-Updates nicht neu installiert.

 

[Joachim_L]

15 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Wodurch wird das Löschen verhindert?

Ich kann es nur für die Betas (Windows) sagen, wo zwar der Löschen-Dialog angezeigt wird und man auch mit OK bestätigen kann, aber die Palette nicht gelöscht wird. Die überflüssigen Paletten hatte ich in der Verkaufsversion schon vor "langer" Zeit gelöscht, weil ich sie einfach als störend empfinde. Ich benötige keine überflüssigen nicht-löschbaren Paletten wie z. B. die Pantone-Paletten.

Edit: Ich muss mich hier korrigieren. Nachdem ich die Füllungen zurückgesetzt habe (STRG-Taste halten beim Start des Programms, nur Füllungen zurücksetzen auswählen und mit Löschen-Button bestätigen), konnte ich die Paletten (bis auf Pantone) auch wieder löschen.

[lacerto]

The Grays palette is of course still useful when working with Gray/8 documents, as its swatches produce RGB grays that export with true G values (device grays) when exporting to grayscales, while K-only definitions produce rich blacks.

[Alfred]

2 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

K-only definitions produce rich blacks

By definition(!) a K-only definition should produce a K-only black, not a rich (CMYK) black.

[lacerto]

5 minutes ago, Alfred said:

By definition(!) a K-only definition should produce a K-only black, not a rich (CMYK) black.

Sorry, I was inaccurate, when exporting grayscales, they produce device grays converted via K-to-RGB-to-gray values (basically uncontrolled, unexpected gray values), while when exporting from grayscale documents to CMYK, they produce four-color-blacks (as would gray-palette swatches). I just meant to point out that K-only are not a guarantee of black-only (or accurate grays), and that the RGB-based Grays-palette is useful in context of how Affinity apps handle grays when working in grayscale mode.

[thomaso]

6 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

and that the RGB-based Grays-palette is useful in context of how Affinity apps handle grays when working in grayscale mode.

What could happen? – Doesn't a K-only gray within an RGB or CMYK document automatically get converted to RGB with an RGB export? Or do you rather mean the aspect, that the tint of K-only gray might visually slightly vary in an RGB export, caused by the conversion?

[lacerto]

6 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Doesn't a K-only gray within an RGB or CMYK document

I am talking about use(fulness) of swatches of the Grays palette (which is an RGB-based palette) when working with documents that are in Gray/8 color mode. In this color mode K-only palette produces inaccurate grays because its values get converted based on underlying working color profiles, while the Grays palette produces accurate and expected grays (also when exporting to RGB e.g. using the digital presets). 

[thomaso]

On 10/25/2021 at 4:58 PM, Lagarto said:

On 10/25/2021 at 4:42 PM, thomaso said:

Doesn't a K-only gray within an RGB or CMYK document

I am talking about use(fulness) of swatches of the Grays palette (which is an RGB-based palette) when working with documents that are in Gray/8 color mode. In this color mode K-only palette produces inaccurate grays because its values get converted based on underlying working color profiles, while the Grays palette produces accurate and expected grays (also when exporting to RGB e.g. using the digital presets). 

Your hints made me test 50 % grays in an .afpub set to "Gray/8" & gray-only color profile (black ink channel). The result appears quite confusing to me. I would expect "Gray/8" would be 1 channel only + therefore would not contain any other color than grays only. But what I get is not only different grays – depending on the color selection mode in the colors panel – but also full color on PDF export. If I export as X-4 it opens as gray / 1 channel as expected but if I switch the viewing profile then colors do occur unexpectedly, indicating that the PDF isn't just gray, and therefore the .afpub, too. – It seems the setup "Gray/8" isn't really 8-bit but still 24-bit behind the curtain, right?

So what would be a correct document setup to force a workflow of 'true' 8-bit / 1-channel only within APub & on export? I would expect at least the visual color range in the colors panel with selection mode "grayscale" offering a simple range from black to white only – instead of the 24-bit color range just displayed as many grays.

v1103 gray8.afpub

v1103 gray8_X4.pdf

 

Exported X-4 PDF with gray/1-channel simulation Profile (= document profile): What causes here the 0/0/0/50 color (top left) turn to 58% K?

[lacerto]

The topic is pretty confusing and complex, indeed. Basically Gray/8 color mode is an RGB color mode in Affinity apps, so grays are equal amounts of R, G and B.

 

That's why Grayscale palette (as an RGB palette) is useful when working with Gray/8 documents. When exporting PDFs using the document color mode and document color profile (basically D50), not embedding it, and forcing raster images to convert, one can produce DeviceGray PDFs (one channel grayscale exports). Grayscale TIFFs will also pass their native gray values this way, and sRGB grays will stay more or less unaltered. Similarly, when exporting to (s)RGB (with digital presets), the gray values stay accurate. Grayscale raster files will not be converted to RGB, though (I do not know why, but that would not normally be a problem).

This is further complicated by the fact that Affinity apps treat placed 1-bit monochrome images as RGB images (and that in a specific way produced and exported grayscale images can be exported 1-bit monochrome images; or in color modes require grayscale images imported as RGB be marked as "K-only" -- by default turned on -- to be treated as grayscales).

Also, I have not placed any vector based content here, as that would make the example still more confusing (considering that Affinity apps do not discard CMYK profiles, nor can they pass through colors unless strict rules are maintained).

The main thing to understand is that one should not export to CMYK from a grayscale document (as that will convert pretty much everything to four-color black), and that K-based blacks and their tones, when exported to grayscale, will be converted via underlying working color profiles to RGB and then to gray and will produce pretty bland blacks (K100 will be around 7087% gray) -- so K100 will not be solid black.

On a general note, if I were to create something to be printed in black ink only, I would prefer to work with a CMYK profile and then keep text, native objects and imported vectors in CMYK (the last mentioned unmanaged so that they will get the document color profile assigned and passed through), and images as true grayscales. Probably much because that's the workflow I am accustomed to (and would allow more control when printing to different kinds of papers), but also because when working with Affinity apps, that would keep the color option open (without requiring tedious changes in use of black, as switching from gray to color would otherwise require).

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Technically I think it would be more accurate to say that Graycale mode ia actually true 1-channel color mode (rather than RGB mode with equal values), but when it needs to co-exist in multicolor mode environment like in Publisher, the gray values would be handled as equal RGB values rather then converted to "equivalent" K-only values so that B:0 = K100 also when working in CMYK color mode document. This is what many find confusing. 

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, Lagarto said:

Basically Gray/8 color mode is an RGB color mode in Affinity apps, so grays are equal amounts of R, G and B.

This sounds weird and confirms my irritation that the "Gray/8" of an Affinity document in fact does not contain 8 bit only as the name implies but actually is 24 bit, although it displays just grays within the Affinity UI. – Hm, does not feel like the professional CMYK workflow mentioned in APub's tech specs. It feels rather like a bug.

I haven't used gray-only for decades and so I was not aware about this issues. I am surprised that Affinity still keeps working this way, though there are according user reports. I had forgotten this older thread where such experiences were discussed already …

 

[walt.farrell]

17 minutes ago, thomaso said:

does not feel like the professional CMYK workflow mentioned in APub's tech specs.

But if you want CMYK you should set up the document as CMYK, not Grayscale.

[thomaso]

Walt, it was used as a quote from the website where "professional" is combined in one line with "CMYK", not with "Grayscale". Nevertheless, you can understand Grayscale as the K channel of CMYK – but Affinity treats K differently.

[walt.farrell]

1 hour ago, thomaso said:

Walt, it was used as a quote from the website where "professional" is combined in one line with "CMYK", not with "Grayscale". Nevertheless, you can understand Grayscale as the K channel of CMYK – but Affinity treats K differently.

I would not assume that Grayscale means the K channel from CMYK, and my Grayscale work has never needed that. That's why I questioned your apparent combining of the statement about CMYK and the discussion of Grayscale.

[lacerto]

11 hours ago, thomaso said:

I haven't used gray-only for decades and so I was not aware about this issues. I am surprised that Affinity still keeps working this way, though there are according user reports.

I suppose that the complexity and idiosyncratic workflows are ultimately the price that must be paid for playing hybrid and having one common file format for the vector and the raster. There is no need for a specific grayscale mode in vector/object graphics, e.g. in InDesign or Illustrator, but they handle black (whether monochrome or tonal) without problems in (CMY)K and RGB (and when needing to output in grayscale or halftoned). When handling specifically grayscale images, raster apps dedicated to the task are used, instead, and separate profiles applied when targeting to print (pigment and different papers) and digital (light).