Spine Calculator

[Sam Neil]

I am putting a 600 page book together in Publisher but making the cover in Designer. The book is facing pages - What is the best spine calculator for this? I know it has to do with the thickness of the paper as well. Any thoughts would appreciated.

[lacerto]

There are many calculators on the web, e.g. 

https://www.gutenberg.com.mt/spine-width-calculator

I typically use a calculator specific to the production and printer, e.g. 

http://www.bookwell.fi/default.asp?SivuID=26641

...which has calculators for diverse jobs, and if I know that the job will be printed by this specific printer then the calculations are exact and there is no need to change them afterwards.

However I have noticed that even if having exact paper specs, another printer / printshop might recommend slightly different specs (even spine widths) so I always confirm the dimensions with the actual printer/printshop.

In apps like InDesign there are advanced features that let easily adjust the spine width afterwards and let you design the cover graphics without needing to make tedious recalculations / adjustments / shifts, so I understand well your desire to be able to make accurate calculations before knowing the printer, but that does not seem to be always possible. 

[uneMule]

2 hours ago, Sam Neil said:

I am putting a 600 page book together in Publisher but making the cover in Designer. The book is facing pages - What is the best spine calculator for this? I know it has to do with the thickness of the paper as well. Any thoughts would appreciated.

Hi @Sam Neil

Vous avez donné la réponse. La meilleure solution est une maquette en blanc. Ou à défaut plier un cahier avec le papier utilisé et faire une règle de calcul. Sans oublier d'ajouter un peu d'espace en fonction de la finition. L'imprimeur doit être force de conseil.
Attention au surprises, surtout si vous avez de l’embellissement sur votre couverture et qu'elle devrait être refaite.

You have given the answer. The best solution is a blank model. Or alternatively, fold a notebook with the paper used and do a rule. Don't forget to add a little space depending on the finish. The printer should be able to advise you.
Beware of surprises, especially if you have embellishment (vernish or other) on your cover and it should be redone.

[uneMule]

19 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

However I have noticed that even if having exact paper specs, another printer / printshop might recommend slightly different specs (even spine widths) so I always confirm the dimensions with the actual printer/printshop.

Hi @Lagarto

Cela vient sans doute du fait qu'à grammage et type identique, l'épaisseur peut (légèrement) varier selon les références. Le calandrage à lui seul a son importance.
Sur 600 pages, un écart significatif est vite trouvé. Et il y a la prise en compte des finitions.

This is probably due to the fact that for the same weight and type, the thickness can vary (slightly) between references. For exemple, the calendering is important.
On 600 pages, a significant difference is quickly found. And then there is the consideration of finishing.

[lacerto]

25 minutes ago, uneMule said:

This is probably due to the fact that for the same weight and type, the thickness can vary (slightly) between references.

Yes, but even with the exactly same paper, there is sometimes need to change something, just because of the printer (even if for "illusory" reasons, because some printers include folds in the spine width, etc., and want them to be marked in the slug). So the differences may be related to a spesific impositioning system. I have not asked for the reason for the differences even if I have imagined to have known all the details, so to relieve myself from the pain, I have always just delivered what has been asked.

[uneMule]

2 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

just because of the printer (though sometimes for "illusory" reasons, because some printers include folds in the spine width, etc., and want them be marked in the slug). So the differences may be related to a spesific impositioning system.

Vous avez raison. Mais ce n'est pas illusoire. Dans votre exemple, il s'agit sans doute de cahiers, qui peuvent avoir différentes finalités : superposés encartés, grecqués... Le type de fabrication influe sur l'épaisseur finale du dos.

You are right. But it is not illusory. In your example, we are probably talking about booklet (cahier), which can have different purposes: superimposed, inset, sawing in... The type of manufacture influences too the final thickness of the spine.

[lacerto]

2 minutes ago, uneMule said:

But it is not illusory.

I did not mean it in the sense of being "futile" or "trivial". I just meant that sometimes the total dimensions are exactly the same (and according to the paper specs) but different printers want to have the print PDF produced or marked a bit differently. So for these reasons alone, I would always check with the actual printer / printshop to avoid the need of recreation/resending of the print files.

[Wosven]

We do like @Lagarto, asking the printer.

Since as he said, depending of printer the spine's width can be slighty different.

[uneMule]

Il me semble que nous sommes tous d'accord

[thomaso]

8 hours ago, Sam Neil said:

I know it has to do with the thickness of the paper as well.

Any reason not to ask the print service for the required width? …since it is related to their specific production conditions. Even the "volume" selector in Lagarto's first calculator linked above might not necessarily meet the thickness of your chosen paper.

[Sam Neil]

19 hours ago, thomaso said:

Any reason not to ask the print service for the required width? …since it is related to their specific production conditions. Even the "volume" selector in Lagarto's first calculator linked above might not necessarily meet the thickness of your chosen paper.

Yes. I have now. Thank you.

[Sam Neil]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:31 PM, Lagarto said:

There are many calculators on the web, e.g. 

https://www.gutenberg.com.mt/spine-width-calculator

I typically use a calculator specific to the production and printer, e.g. 

http://www.bookwell.fi/default.asp?SivuID=26641

...which has calculators for diverse jobs, and if I know that the job will be printed by this specific printer then the calculations are exact and there is no need to change them afterwards.

However I have noticed that even if having exact paper specs, another printer / printshop might recommend slightly different specs (even spine widths) so I always confirm the dimensions with the actual printer/printshop.

In apps like InDesign there are advanced features that let easily adjust the spine width afterwards and let you design the cover graphics without needing to make tedious recalculations / adjustments / shifts, so I understand well your desire to be able to make accurate calculations before knowing the printer, but that does not seem to be always possible. 

Thank you for that! I am hoping this will also happen in AP as you have stated:

"In apps like InDesign there are advanced features that let easily adjust the spine width afterwards and let you design the cover graphics without needing to make tedious recalculations / adjustments / shifts, so I understand well your desire to be able to make accurate calculations before knowing the printer, but that does not seem to be always possible. "

 

[Sam Neil]

Sorry I am going to have one more question on this as I am confused on the page numbers if they are "Facing Pages" so do I go with what APUB is showing or the final number in the PDF?

[Old Bruce]

The larger of the two.

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, Sam Neil said:

Sorry I am going to have one more question on this as I am confused on the page numbers if they are "Facing Pages" so do I go with what APUB is showing or the final number in the PDF?

It's about the numbers of physical sheets. Aren't the page numbers identical in APub's pages panel and in the exported PDF?

The numbers printed on pages may differ, e.g. by starting pages with no numbers or like i, ii, iii – before 1, 2, 3 etc., or by using sections with separate numbering.

[Sam Neil]

35 minutes ago, thomaso said:

It's about the numbers of physical sheets. Aren't the page numbers identical in APub's pages panel and in the exported PDF?

The numbers printed on pages may differ, e.g. by starting pages with no numbers or like i, ii, iii – before 1, 2, 3 etc., or by using sections with separate numbering.

Thank you for that! 

"Aren't the page numbers identical in APub's pages panel and in the exported PDF?" I my case no as I have numbered the pages manually and set the page numbers differently. So things like Preface and TOC and so on don't have a page number and only section 1 of the book starts having numbers which in reality is page 15 for example.

[Old Bruce]

You are correct to use the number value in the Pages panel. Disregard the number from the PDF as it may refer to spreads not pages if it is a double page spread (((PDF number of pages)times 2 minus 2) should give you the correct number of pages in that case. Why not take a book and a ruler and do some tests with guessing at the paper weight and plugging in some numbers on the website, use a ruler and some paper for your printer and see what the numbers are from which ever website calculator you use. Remember each sheet of paper is two pages (front and back).

[Sam Neil]

18 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

You are correct to use the number value in the Pages panel. Disregard the number from the PDF as it may refer to spreads not pages if it is a double page spread (((PDF number of pages)times 2 minus 2) should give you the correct number of pages in that case. Why not take a book and a ruler and do some tests with guessing at the paper weight and plugging in some numbers on the website, use a ruler and some paper for your printer and see what the numbers are from which ever website calculator you use. Remember each sheet of paper is two pages (front and back).

Cheer Old Bruce - Will do.

[uneMule]

17 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

f it is a double page spread (((PDF number of pages)times 2 minus 2)

Bonsoir à tous

Une question qui peut se poser et que souvent les imprimeurs préfèrent avoir des pdf page à page, et les couvertures avec le dos carré montées à part.
Bien que les flux de traitement permettent de découper les pages, avant l'imposition.

A question that may arise is that printers often prefer to have page-by-page pdfs, and square-backed covers mounted separately.
Although the processing workflows allow the pages to be cut, before imposition.

[Sam Neil]

3 minutes ago, uneMule said:

Bonsoir à tous

Une question qui peut se poser et que souvent les imprimeurs préfèrent avoir des pdf page à page, et les couvertures avec le dos carré montées à part.
Bien que les flux de traitement permettent de découper les pages, avant l'imposition.

A question that may arise is that printers often prefer to have page-by-page pdfs, and square-backed covers mounted separately.
Although the processing workflows allow the pages to be cut, before imposition.

But my project is "Facing Pages"....

[Old Bruce]

5 minutes ago, Sam Neil said:

But my project is "Facing Pages"....

When you export the PDF for the Print Shop choose Pages instead of (the immutable default) Spreads in the export dialog.

[wonderings]

You need to know the stock weight you are using. We generally use 60lb and 70lb for perfect bound books. When your book is completely formatted so you have the exact number of pages your printer should be able to tell you how thick it will be. I do it the old fashion way and just count out however many sheets it will use and measure it with a ruler. 

[wonderings]

2 hours ago, Sam Neil said:

Sorry I am going to have one more question on this as I am confused on the page numbers if they are "Facing Pages" so do I go with what APUB is showing or the final number in the PDF?

I would imagine APUB is still showing total individual pages. Facing pages does not change how many pages are in the document, just how they are laid out. Facing pages shows what it will look like when open. For a perfect bound you will want to move your text out from the centre, this will depends on how large the book is. I recently did a 178 page perfect bound book (89 sheets) and shifted out away from the spine about .25". When you think about a book think how it opens, you lose things into that binding as you are not really seeing the whole sheet. 

When exporting make sure you are doing single pages and not in spreads.

[Sam Neil]

1 hour ago, wonderings said:

I would imagine APUB is still showing total individual pages. Facing pages does not change how many pages are in the document, just how they are laid out. Facing pages shows what it will look like when open. For a perfect bound you will want to move your text out from the centre, this will depends on how large the book is. I recently did a 178 page perfect bound book (89 sheets) and shifted out away from the spine about .25". When you think about a book think how it opens, you lose things into that binding as you are not really seeing the whole sheet. 

When exporting make sure you are doing single pages and not in spreads.

Do you mean this? (Attached)

[thomaso]

22 hours ago, Sam Neil said:

"Aren't the page numbers identical in APub's pages panel and in the exported PDF?" I my case no as I have numbered the pages manually (…)

What you numbered manually are the page numbers which appear on the pages as your layout areas – these numbers can be customized and thus be different to those shown in the Pages Panel. The pages panel, and also the bottom left "of …" number, do always display the total number – regardless of manual, individual numbering, e.g. done by sections or empty pages.

So the "of …" number is the one of the physical pages, and usually equal to the page numbers in the user interface (≠ layout page view) of a PDF viewer app.
(usually, because this PDF page numbering may also contain text in certain cases, e.g. file names if images get collected as PDF by e.g. Acrobat)

Edited September 9, 2021 by thomaso
added: "be different"