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Jpeg file contains non-pixel elements -- but it does not


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I open a jpeg file in AP & do nothing other than drag the Blur Brush Tool across the edge of the single pixel layer it contains. I then select File > Save & get a warning that the file contains non-pixel elements, with an offer to save flattened, save as, or cancel.

Thing is, even if I cancel & then from the Document menu select "Flatten" I still get the same warning if I try to save the file.

If I use the Blur Brush Tool but do not brush past the edge of the document, I do not get the warning & the file saves without issues. This does not happen with other pixel tools like Sharpen or Smudge -- I can drag them past the document edges without getting the 'non-pixel elements' warning on Save.

Anybody else seeing the same thing?

All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
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I don't get any warning, it just saves the file. However this is on Win10.

Affinity Photo 2.4..; Affinity Designer 2.4..; Affinity Publisher 2.4..; Affinity2 Beta versions. Affinity Photo,Designer 1.10.6.1605 Win10 Home Version:21H2, Build: 19044.1766: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-5820K CPU @ 3.30GHz, 3301 Mhz, 6 Core(s), 12 Logical Processor(s);32GB Ram, Nvidia GTX 3070, 3-Internal HDD (1 Crucial MX5000 1TB, 1-Crucial MX5000 500GB, 1-WD 1 TB), 4 External HDD

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34 minutes ago, Ron P. said:

I don't get any warning, it just saves the file. However this is on Win10.

Are you sure you stroked the Blur Brush Tool from somewhere within the canvas out past one of its edges?

All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
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1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7

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2 hours ago, R C-R said:

Are you sure you stroked the Blur Brush Tool from somewhere within the canvas out past one of its edges?

Yes, no warnings (Windows)

To save time I am currently using an automated AI to reply to some posts on this forum. If any of "my" posts are wrong or appear to be total b*ll*cks they are the ones generated by the AI. If correct they were probably mine. I apologise for any mistakes made by my AI - I'm sure it will improve with time.

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I get the same warning if I open a JPEG, use the blur brush at the edge of it to outside the image and press Cmd+S. I thought that it might have to do with the nondestructive behaviour of AfPhoto: if you blur the edge, pixels might be moved to outside the edge of the canvas, so that it became a little bigger. But if I rasterize and trim, the message still appears. Don't know what that means.

Might have to do with our other thread concerning JPEGs. Might be a warning that overwriting the JPEG will cause a loss of quality because of compression. But the wording confuses.

Edit: Another idea: Possibly "non-pixel elements" means that there are transparencies in the image that are not supported by JPEG. I tested it after using the eraser and got the same message. This would make sense.

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30 minutes ago, iconoclast said:

Might have to do with our other thread concerning JPEGs. Might be a warning that overwriting the JPEG will cause a loss of quality because of compression. But the wording confuses.

???

a) It is a well-known fact that reopening, editing and saving to JPEG (generally any lossy format) leads to a loss of quality is well known. So why would Affinity warn against this?

b) Why warn only on MacOS and not Windows, when it comes to the general problem of lossy format manipulation?

c) Why warn only when manipulating outside the document area, when it comes to the general problem of lossy format manipulation?

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6 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

???

a) It is a well-known fact that reopening, editing and saving to JPEG (generally any lossy format) leads to a loss of quality is well known. So why would Affinity warn against this?

b) Why warn only on MacOS and not Windows, when it comes to the general problem of lossy format manipulation?

c) Why warn only when manipulating outside the document area, when it comes to the general problem of lossy format manipulation?

a) As I experienced through the years, many people don't know that. So a warning could be safer.

b) I'm on Windows and I get the message too.

c) The message also appears if you erased in the middle of the image. I added an annotation about that some time ago to my last post here.

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11 minutes ago, iconoclast said:

b) I'm on Windows and I get the message too.

Too bad you didn't complete and disprove the experience of other users.

1 hour ago, carl123 said:

Yes, no warnings (Windows)

 

4 hours ago, Ron P. said:

I don't get any warning, it just saves the file. However this is on Win10.

 

Affinity Store (MSI/EXE): Affinity Suite (ADe, APh, APu) 2.4.0.2301
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Dell Latitude E5570, i5-6440HQ 2.60 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics 530, 1920 x 1080, Windows 11 Pro, Version 23H2, Build 22631.3155.
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Just now, iconoclast said:

sorry! I think Carl didn't really follow R-C-R's workflow.

Yes he did, I was there when he did it!

To save time I am currently using an automated AI to reply to some posts on this forum. If any of "my" posts are wrong or appear to be total b*ll*cks they are the ones generated by the AI. If correct they were probably mine. I apologise for any mistakes made by my AI - I'm sure it will improve with time.

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17 minutes ago, carl123 said:

Yes he did, I was there when he did it!

Really: Open a JPEG, blur its edge with the Blur Brush and/or erase a lttle somewhere in the image, press Cmd+S? If you don't get the message: What OS and version of AfPhoto are you using? I'm on Windows 10, AfPhoto 1.10.0.1127.

scr.thumb.jpg.410fa646ee94e6315fb2bc1a537a0e8a.jpg

 

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8 minutes ago, iconoclast said:

Really: Open a JPEG, blur its edge with the Blur Brush and/or erase a lttle somewhere in the image, press Cmd+S? If you don't get the message: What OS and version of AfPhoto are you using? I'm on Winows 10, AfPhoto 1.10.0.1127.

 

If I blur the edge I get no message

If I erase something I do get the message (but that was not the original question)

I am on Windows 8.1, APhoto 1.9.2 (update pending, when I have time)

 

To save time I am currently using an automated AI to reply to some posts on this forum. If any of "my" posts are wrong or appear to be total b*ll*cks they are the ones generated by the AI. If correct they were probably mine. I apologise for any mistakes made by my AI - I'm sure it will improve with time.

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8 minutes ago, carl123 said:

If I blur the edge I get no message

If I erase something I do get the message (but that was not the original question)

I am on Windows 8.1, APhoto 1.9.2 (upgrade pending, when I have time)

 

So it might depend on the AfPhoto version? Possibly a bug or a new feature? Seems that it has to do with transparencies. But unchecking "Transparent Background" in the "Document" menu has no effect on this.

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For me (Win10, APhoto 1.9) get the message even if I blur within the image area.

Affinity Store (MSI/EXE): Affinity Suite (ADe, APh, APu) 2.4.0.2301
Dell OptiPlex 7060, i5-8500 3.00 GHz, 16 GB, Intel UHD Graphics 630, Dell P2417H 1920 x 1080, Windows 11 Pro, Version 23H2, Build 22631.3155.
Dell Latitude E5570, i5-6440HQ 2.60 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics 530, 1920 x 1080, Windows 11 Pro, Version 23H2, Build 22631.3155.
Intel NUC5PGYH, Pentium N3700 2.40 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics, EIZO EV2456 1920 x 1200, Windows 10 Pro, Version 21H1, Build 19043.2130.

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6 minutes ago, iconoclast said:

Weird! I only get it if I blur the edges.

I thought it might depend on the content of the image - what colors mix with each other during the blur. But I made a picture 100x100 px, and Fill a blue layer in it. After exporting to JPEG and opening it, I then click in the middle of the image using the Blur tool (Basic/Round brush/32px), and when I save Ctrl + S, I have a message.

P. S. Although it is a Fill layer, ie the area should be filled with one color, but when saved to JPEG, many different blue colors will be created due to compression artifacts.

Affinity Store (MSI/EXE): Affinity Suite (ADe, APh, APu) 2.4.0.2301
Dell OptiPlex 7060, i5-8500 3.00 GHz, 16 GB, Intel UHD Graphics 630, Dell P2417H 1920 x 1080, Windows 11 Pro, Version 23H2, Build 22631.3155.
Dell Latitude E5570, i5-6440HQ 2.60 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics 530, 1920 x 1080, Windows 11 Pro, Version 23H2, Build 22631.3155.
Intel NUC5PGYH, Pentium N3700 2.40 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics, EIZO EV2456 1920 x 1200, Windows 10 Pro, Version 21H1, Build 19043.2130.

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I tested it with a JPEG converted from RGB to CMYK, then blurred the edge, and got no message. Something with the channels?

Edit: But erasing also causes a message after converting to CMYK. Also curves cause the message.

Generelly I would endorse those messages, if they would be reliable. Because I usually never overwrite JPEGs and would like to be warned in such cases.

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7 hours ago, R C-R said:

Are you sure you stroked the Blur Brush Tool from somewhere within the canvas out past one of its edges?

Yes I'm sure. I even tried overlapping the edges with the canvas along the entire edge.

Affinity Photo 2.4..; Affinity Designer 2.4..; Affinity Publisher 2.4..; Affinity2 Beta versions. Affinity Photo,Designer 1.10.6.1605 Win10 Home Version:21H2, Build: 19044.1766: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-5820K CPU @ 3.30GHz, 3301 Mhz, 6 Core(s), 12 Logical Processor(s);32GB Ram, Nvidia GTX 3070, 3-Internal HDD (1 Crucial MX5000 1TB, 1-Crucial MX5000 500GB, 1-WD 1 TB), 4 External HDD

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3 hours ago, iconoclast said:

Generelly I would endorse those messages, if they would be reliable. Because I usually never overwrite JPEGs and would like to be warned in such cases.

But then you should use some systematic and principled protection against file overwriting (eg setting the Read Only flag), and not some completely random message from the application.

Affinity Store (MSI/EXE): Affinity Suite (ADe, APh, APu) 2.4.0.2301
Dell OptiPlex 7060, i5-8500 3.00 GHz, 16 GB, Intel UHD Graphics 630, Dell P2417H 1920 x 1080, Windows 11 Pro, Version 23H2, Build 22631.3155.
Dell Latitude E5570, i5-6440HQ 2.60 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics 530, 1920 x 1080, Windows 11 Pro, Version 23H2, Build 22631.3155.
Intel NUC5PGYH, Pentium N3700 2.40 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics, EIZO EV2456 1920 x 1200, Windows 10 Pro, Version 21H1, Build 19043.2130.

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1 hour ago, Pšenda said:

But then you should use some systematic and principled protection against file overwriting (eg setting the Read Only flag), and not some completely random message from the application.

That's what I meant: If you have the opportunity to overwrite the source-JPEG-file, the app you are working with (in this case AfPhoto) should at least send a reliable warning whenever you do it. In GIMP for example you can overwrite JPEGs and other end-filetypes only with the "Export"-function. The "Save"-function only allows to save as XCF (GIMPs standard-format)and some archive-formats. I think that is safer.

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This is quite confusing. Some of you are running AP 1.9 & others 1.10; some Windows 10 & some an older Windows version; but there seems to be no correlation with who sees the message & who does not. From what @Pšenda said above, for at least one person it is not necessary to blur past the edge to get the message; for at least one user it is.

Then there is the transparency thing. I also get the 'non-pixel elements' message if I erase any part of a JPEG file opened in AP, with an option to save flattened:

707668091_non-pixelwarning.jpg.b227494aefcdcc259b1ae9d173219769.jpg

This happens whether I have enabled Document > Transparent Background or not. But if I cancel the save & use Document > Flatten I still get the message if I try to save & I doubt that transparent pixels really qualify as non-pixel elements even if I have enabled a transparent background.

For the record, I am running AP 1.10.0 on a Mac running Catalina (macOS 10.15.7.

All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
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1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7

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I can confirm that the issue occurs on my Windows 10 PC with 1.10 by just applying any of blur/sharpen/median tool once in the middle of the picture. So no partial alpha is required. Once you have advanced to the state, no operation (except undo) gets you out of the state. Seems it triggered a flag which cannot be reset.

But 1.10. once again is showing an issue started with 1.9 that the preview rendering of some adjustments (like blur brush) is wrong (transparent instead of actual preview), see 

 

Edited by NotMyFault

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Special interest into procedural texture filter, edit alpha channel, RGB/16 and RGB/32 color formats, stacking, finding root causes for misbehaving files, finding creative solutions for unsolvable tasks, finding bugs in Apps.

 

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Here too the warning message  under windows 10 as described by  @R C-R

 

Cheers

1.png

Affinity Photo 2.4:         Affinity Photo 1.10.6: 

Affinity Designer 2.4:    Affinity Designer 1.10.6:

Affinity Publisher 2.4:   Affinity Publisher 1.10.6:    

Windows 11 Pro  (Version 23H2 Build (22631.3296)

 

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27 minutes ago, NotMyFault said:

I can confirm that the issue occurs on my Windows 10 PC with 1.10 by just applying any of blur/sharpen/median tool once in the middle of the picture.

Arg! Curiouser & curiouser!!

As I reported originally, for me of those 3 tools only the Blur Brush Tool triggers the non-pixel elements warning, & only if I drag that brush past the edge of the canvas.

I do get the warning if I use the Erase Brush Tool anywhere on the canvas at anything over 0% opacity -- maybe this is something everyone is seeing, regardless of OS or AP version?

29 minutes ago, NotMyFault said:

But 1.10. once again is showing an issue started with 1.9 that the preview rendering of some adjustments (like blur brush) is wrong (transparent instead of actual preview) ...

FWIW, I see that too on my Mac running AP 1.10.0 for Macs. I do not know if I saw the same thing in 1.9.x. I have tried toggling off & back on "Show Brush Previews" in AP's preferences but it makes no difference.

All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
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1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7

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13 minutes ago, Gnobelix said:

Here too the warning message  under windows 10 as described by  @R C-R

So yet another confirmation that not everyone running Win 10 sees the same thing?

Just to confirm we are all on the same page, everyone is starting by opening an existing jpeg file (so the document title bar shows the .jpg extension as part of the file name) & if you do not get the warning on save, the saved file still has the jpeg file extension, right?

EDIT: I doubt it will make any difference but maybe try testing with this small 500x500 px jpeg. It is only 62KB.confetti.jpg.35a251acd820aebf2bef2272f3463943.jpg

All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
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