trommlertom Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 Hello! I have a portrait shot on green screen and I want to remove the background. I created a mask and used the refine function. Within the tool it looked very well (see sample above). But after creating a new layer with a mask the result is very bad. Parts of the beard loose contrast and information. When I disable the mask on that layer the layer looks very strangs on the edges. Even if I tried to repair the mask with black and white brushes, the lost information is not displayed again... Why? Is this a software bug? Or did I make mistakes? Please help! Thanks Thomas I have uploaded the affinity file in case somebody will check my work in affinity. sample.afphoto Quote
NotMyFault Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 Hi, i get a better result when starting the selection brush from the green background, and invert the selection, before creating a mask or copying (or using refine mask), see below. I’m using iPad, but there is no difference in functionality. The strange color after using refine mask and either new layer or layer with mask is a side-effect of color decontamination: Affinity eliminates the green background color quite brutally, in this spills over to the black/white beard (which might have somme green shining through). My advise would be to not use these two output settings in this specific case. Just create a mask, or copy the selected area. To increase the contrast on the edge area of the beard, you could add an curves or levels adjustment, and use the alpha channel. Quote Mac mini M1 A2348 | MBP M3 Windows 11 - AMD Ryzen 9 5900x - 32 GB RAM - Nvidia GTX 1080 LG34WK950U-W, calibrated to DCI-P3 with LG Calibration Studio / Spider 5 | Dell 27“ 4K iPad Air Gen 5 (2022) A2589 Special interest into procedural texture filter, edit alpha channel, RGB/16 and RGB/32 color formats, stacking, finding root causes for misbehaving files, finding creative solutions for unsolvable tasks, finding bugs in Apps. I use iPad screenshots and videos even in the Desktop section of the forum when I expect no relevant difference.
trommlertom Posted June 30, 2021 Author Posted June 30, 2021 2 hours ago, NotMyFault said: Hi, i get a better result when starting the selection brush from the green background, and invert the selection, before creating a mask or copying (or using refine mask), see below. I’m using iPad, but there is no difference in functionality. The strange color after using refine mask and either new layer or layer with mask is a side-effect of color decontamination: Affinity eliminates the green background color quite brutally, in this spills over to the black/white beard (which might have somme green shining through). My advise would be to not use these two output settings in this specific case. Just create a mask, or copy the selected area. To increase the contrast on the edge area of the beard, you could add an curves or levels adjustment, and use the alpha channel. Thanks for your effort and advice. But frankly speaking, I am wondering about Affinty Photo. I never had this issues with Photoshop. In fact the refine tool is not working well anyway (in my opinion). Working with green screen is what should make thinks easy for the software. But the result is bad. what a pitty... Quote
trommlertom Posted June 30, 2021 Author Posted June 30, 2021 Hopefully someone of the development team will see this thread and has some explanation for this behavior ... Quote
NotMyFault Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 1 hour ago, trommlertom said: Thanks for your effort and advice. But frankly speaking, I am wondering about Affinty Photo. I never had this issues with Photoshop. In fact the refine tool is not working well anyway (in my opinion). Working with green screen is what should make thinks easy for the software. But the result is bad. what a pitty... I share your frustration about the state of the refine tool, but don’t hold your breath waiting for any improvement. Since 2017 it did not really evolve, and in 1.9.2 the alpha channel adjustment layers stopped working when nested (despite this method explained in James Ritson’s older official training video for hair selection). Never the less, you can get workable selections / masks using multiple techniques, e.g. the flood selection tool applied to the green screen gets you a almost perfect selection with minor tweaks of the default settings. Quote Mac mini M1 A2348 | MBP M3 Windows 11 - AMD Ryzen 9 5900x - 32 GB RAM - Nvidia GTX 1080 LG34WK950U-W, calibrated to DCI-P3 with LG Calibration Studio / Spider 5 | Dell 27“ 4K iPad Air Gen 5 (2022) A2589 Special interest into procedural texture filter, edit alpha channel, RGB/16 and RGB/32 color formats, stacking, finding root causes for misbehaving files, finding creative solutions for unsolvable tasks, finding bugs in Apps. I use iPad screenshots and videos even in the Desktop section of the forum when I expect no relevant difference.
AffinityJules Posted July 1, 2021 Posted July 1, 2021 The refinement tool works wonders on certain images, while on others, it leaves behind a mess for you to clear up! I'm no expert, but I've never understood how, after making a selection and seeing the marching ants correspond to the selection just made, it then proceeds to produce artifacts outside of the selection bounds? I've been mucking around with it for 2 - 3 years, so in a sense I know where I'm coming from. These days I avoid it like the plague. Never been that impressed by it. As menioned above: when trying to make a selection from a solid background - green screen etc, it helps to use channels alongside level adjustments to create a stark contrast to make the selection very accurate. Give it a go. additional: Your picture (top) has not got a good selection to begin with, the selection should be tighter/closer to the beard for the finished result to improve. Quote Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe. These are not my own words but I sure like this quote.
firstdefence Posted July 2, 2021 Posted July 2, 2021 I think, in part, the amount of noise and the inconsistent lighting that is adding a gradient to the colour on the green screen is making this job harder than it needs to be, that and the creases. I imported the image into Adobe After Effects and used Red Giants Primatte Keyer 6 on the image. The first thing that is apparent is the noise on the left-hand side but when zoomed it it is also on the right but on a finer level. This isn't a single click job and requires some refinement to get even close to a good matte. Quote iMac 27" 2019 Sequoia 15.0 (24A335), iMac 27" Affinity Designer, Photo & Publisher V1 & V2, Adobe, Inkscape, Vectorstyler, Blender, C4D, Sketchup + more... XP-Pen Artist-22E, - iPad Pro 12.9 (Please refrain from licking the screen while using this forum) Affinity Help - Affinity Desktop Tutorials - Feedback - FAQ - most asked questions
thomaso Posted July 2, 2021 Posted July 2, 2021 The greenish hair tips in OP's initial screenshot don't look like a green screen shot – or indicate quality loss by image compression. Quote • MacBookPro Retina 15" | macOS 10.14.6 | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1 • iPad 10.Gen. | iOS 18.5. | Affinity V2.6
trommlertom Posted July 2, 2021 Author Posted July 2, 2021 2 hours ago, firstdefence said: I think, in part, the amount of noise and the inconsistent lighting that is adding a gradient to the colour on the green screen is making this job harder than it needs to be, that and the creases. I imported the image into Adobe After Effects and used Red Giants Primatte Keyer 6 on the image. The first thing that is apparent is the noise on the left-hand side but when zoomed it it is also on the right but on a finer level. This isn't a single click job and requires some refinement to get even close to a good matte. I know that it would need some "hand work" to have professional results. I just was wondering about the very bad result of the refine tool. I could accept algorithm problems on the Yellow marked area because the original green background can affect the result. But the red marked area should be fine and not affected be the refine tool.. In my opinion is this functionality of Affinity does not work professional! Meanwhile I have separated the beard with the "wand" separation tool and it worked well. But the refine tool is.... (no comment)... Quote
PaulEC Posted July 2, 2021 Posted July 2, 2021 On 6/30/2021 at 7:28 PM, trommlertom said: Working with green screen is what should make thinks easy for the software. For some reason a lot of people seem to think that there's something special about a green background that makes it easier to replace the background. A "green screen" is actually intended to be used with Chroma Key software to electronically replace a background, it is of no help if you are just using normal background replacement techniques. In fact any bright colour (like a bright green) is going to make it more difficult because of colour fringing. Quote Acer XC-895 : Core i5-10400 Hexa-core 2.90 GHz : 32GB RAM : Intel UHD Graphics 630 – Windows 11 Home - Affinity Publisher, Photo & Designer, v2 (As I am a Windows user, any answers/comments I contribute may not apply to Mac or iPad.)
trommlertom Posted July 2, 2021 Author Posted July 2, 2021 4 minutes ago, PaulEC said: For some reason a lot of people seem to think that there's something special about a green background that makes it easier to replace the background. A "green screen" is actually intended to be used with Chroma Key software to electronically replace a background, it is of no help if you are just using normal background replacement techniques. In fact any bright colour (like a bright green) is going to make it more difficult because of colour fringing. I produced some green Screen Videos and took the chance to shot some pics in that situation. But using green screen or not was not the question i my opinion. The question was: 1) Why is the refine tool not as powerful as expected and "promoted" and 2) Why is the refine tool effecting areas that actually should not changed (see my earlier post) Anyway... 🙂 Cheers Thomas BTW: For some reason there are companies offering special Software for green screen photoshoting production. https://fxhome.com/product/photokey-pro Quote
Old Bruce Posted July 2, 2021 Posted July 2, 2021 17 minutes ago, trommlertom said: For some reason there are companies offering special Software for green screen photoshoting production. Check the loss of her hair, I doubt it would do the job well on the beard. Quote Mac Pro (Late 2013) Mac OS 12.7.6 Affinity Designer 2.6.0 | Affinity Photo 2.6.0 | Affinity Publisher 2.6.0 | Beta versions as they appear. I have never mastered color management, period, so I cannot help with that.
trommlertom Posted July 2, 2021 Author Posted July 2, 2021 1 minute ago, Old Bruce said: Check the loss of her hair, I doubt it would do the job well on the beard. Good point. Quote
AffinityJules Posted July 2, 2021 Posted July 2, 2021 https://blog.spoongraphics.co.uk/tutorials/handy-techniques-for-cutting-out-hair-in-photoshop The link above will direct you to a very old tutorial where I first learned about advanced techniques for background removal from hair. The tutorial itself uses the superior competitor program, but the techniques are exactly the same. Quote Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe. These are not my own words but I sure like this quote.
firstdefence Posted July 2, 2021 Posted July 2, 2021 2 hours ago, trommlertom said: I know that it would need some "hand work" to have professional results. I just was wondering about the very bad result of the refine tool. I could accept algorithm problems on the Yellow marked area because the original green background can affect the result. But the red marked area should be fine and not affected be the refine tool.. In my opinion is this functionality of Affinity does not work professional! Meanwhile I have separated the beard with the "wand" separation tool and it worked well. But the refine tool is.... (no comment)... A similar thing happens if I use Red Giants Primatte 6 in After Effects, although not as pronounced. Quote iMac 27" 2019 Sequoia 15.0 (24A335), iMac 27" Affinity Designer, Photo & Publisher V1 & V2, Adobe, Inkscape, Vectorstyler, Blender, C4D, Sketchup + more... XP-Pen Artist-22E, - iPad Pro 12.9 (Please refrain from licking the screen while using this forum) Affinity Help - Affinity Desktop Tutorials - Feedback - FAQ - most asked questions
NotMyFault Posted July 2, 2021 Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) There are (or were in the past) some procedural texture filters available by James Ritson (and others), partially paid content, which help to “perfectly” eliminate green screen. The issue is that a green background is never only one HSL color, but a huge range of HSL colors. You need to tweak the range you want to eliminate as background, without loosing foreground details which might fall into the required Intervall. Next, you often get color contamination from background reflections to your foreground object at edges or hair. Actually, there is no silver bullet (in Affinity at least), and sometimes it is faster to artificially paint in hair instead of waisting too much time trying to perfectly selecting hair. And don’t forget to feather the selection just the right amount- which differs totally within the same picture between hair (small or no feather) and e.g. a shirt or jacket (multiple pixel feather might be required). For me the main issue with refine tool is that it forces you use the same parameters (smooth, feather, border width) for all parts, leading to bad results in more complex cases. What is missing is either control points and local settings (like NIK collection), or a simple way to define 2 or multiple regions and good presets for hair (depending on hair color(s) and background color (s)), face, cloth, … As a workaround, I made a tutorial how to combine multiple masks additively, which may help to overcome this issue (will update the link later) Unsolved bug related: Edited July 2, 2021 by NotMyFault Quote Mac mini M1 A2348 | MBP M3 Windows 11 - AMD Ryzen 9 5900x - 32 GB RAM - Nvidia GTX 1080 LG34WK950U-W, calibrated to DCI-P3 with LG Calibration Studio / Spider 5 | Dell 27“ 4K iPad Air Gen 5 (2022) A2589 Special interest into procedural texture filter, edit alpha channel, RGB/16 and RGB/32 color formats, stacking, finding root causes for misbehaving files, finding creative solutions for unsolvable tasks, finding bugs in Apps. I use iPad screenshots and videos even in the Desktop section of the forum when I expect no relevant difference.
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