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Creating guides seams to me to be inverted


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32 minutes ago, AndRo Marian said:

What you don't understand?

I don't understand nothing 😃

32 minutes ago, AndRo Marian said:

I expected to put a Ruler on the screen to measure Vertically,

Maybe adjusting the origin will help.

Open the Guides manager and then drag the origin from the top left corner of the document. The measurements in the Spread Origin section of the Guides manager will update continuously.

Once you have set your origin, you can place guides to indicate its position. You can set those guides precisely by setting their values to 0 in the Guides Manager. You can mark vertically from the origin by placing a horizontal guide, as explained in mind-bogglingly tedious detail before.

32 minutes ago, AndRo Marian said:

Like in the Paper video

I don't know what that is.

Edited by h_d
Minor text correction - "place" for "position"

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48 minutes ago, AndRo Marian said:

You are moving the Horizontal guides up and down. So that is Vertically too.

Yes, absolutely. Because the Horizontal guides are perpendicular to the Vertical ruler. If I move a horizontal guide horizontally, it will move from side to side. Nothing will change.

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@AndRo Marian I am trying to explain as best I can and I don't wish to be adversarial. My attempts to explain have focussed and I think improved my own understanding, for which I am grateful. But I don't believe that you have quite understood the relationship between Rulers (measurers) and Guides (markers). Maybe someone else can explain it better than I, but I will leave it at this:

Rulers give you a measure. There are two, one for the X axis (horizontal) and one for the Y axis (vertical). Their measurements are displayed on the top and left edges of your document. You can adjust the origin of your two rulers at will, as I hope my video shows. You cannot have more than two rulers.

Guides give you a positional mark. You can have as many as you like, but they do not make measurements - they mark measurements on the perpendicular ruler. Horizontal guides are perpendicular to the single vertical ruler. Vertical guides are perpendicular to the single horizontal ruler. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, AndRo Marian said:

What you don't understand?

I don't understand your logic.

The Guide Manager creates vertical guides when you add them to the Vertical Guides list & horizontal ones when you add them to the Horizontal Guides list. It is completely consistent with the behavior seen when dragging guides out from the rulers built into the apps -- dragging from the vertical ruler creates new entries in the Vertical Guides list & likewise dragging them out from the horizontal ruler creates new entries in the Horizontal Guides list.

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You "MOVE" a vertical guide horizontally and a horizontal guide vertically but they are NOT called by how they move. Horizontal and Vertical are in reference to the guides orientation NOT it's direction of movement.

Static objects such as bridges are generally horizontally oriented because you cannot move a bridge vertically, it is always horizontal, so why would a guide be called it's "direction of movement" when it's orientation is the opposite.

Photoshop has been doing it the same as Affinity since god was a lad and I doubt you'd find an app that does it your way of thinking.

image.png.6c6554c54b1bdea2002afb05a8a2a7cc.png

 

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6 minutes ago, anon2 said:

this one moved vertically:

spacer.png

A real world world Horizontal guide 🤣

 

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The first time I read AndRo Marian’s first post in this thread I thought it was a ludicrous question.
However, after a bit of thought, I believe that I can see where they are coming from and I think the concept has good logical reasoning.

Horizontal Guides are drawn horizontally, as horizontal lines, and Vertical Guides are drawn vertically, as vertical lines.
The name of the guide-type tells you the orientation of the guide; and that sounds fine.

However, Horizontal Guides are used to align things vertically and Vertical Guides are used to align things horizontally.
And, when you think about it for a while, ignoring what you already know, that can start to sound strange.

The name of the guide-type tells you something about how the guide is drawn but it doesn’t relate to what you do with it.
In other words, the name is related to what you see rather than what it is for.

If you start to accept the idea that Horizontal Guides should be for aligning things horizontally and Vertical guides should be for aligning things vertically – the opposite of how they are now – then that can actually sound more logical. Create a horizontal guide to allow horizontal alignment, create a Vertical Guide to allow vertical alignment.

The simple addition of the word “alignment” (their purpose) to the names swaps their meaning around: “Vertical Guide” becomes “Vertical Alignment Guide”, and “Horizontal Guide” becomes “Horizontal Alignment Guide”.

So now we have the question of how we name things. Do we name things after what they look like or do we name them after what they are used for?

Personally I don’t really care because I know what they do and what they are for and I’m used to it. I can also understand that most people who are used to using these things will also not see anything wrong with how things are, also because that’s what they are used to.

But, I can see the argument for renaming them and switching things around so they are named for what they do rather than how they look.

It’s an interesting idea which should not be dismissed out-of-hand simply because ‘that’s just how things are’.

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Even a video here:


I mean when you are measuring Vertically, you end with a doing a Horizontal line in front of the number or below the ruler.
In this video the perspective is Horizontally, so the Guide will be Vertically, from right to left.


So, get a ruler (You want to measure the 10 cm from top), Put the ruler Vertically and draw a Horizontal line under Ruler or on front of the indicator of 10 cm.
That's what I expected to see on the Guide Manager, Going to Vertical, add a guide that should be Horizontally from Top to Bottom.

Like how @GarryP says above. My perspective is not how the Guides (Lines) are oriented.

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13 minutes ago, GarryP said:

If you start to accept the idea that Horizontal Guides should be for aligning things horizontally and Vertical guides should be for aligning things vertically – the opposite of how they are now – then that can actually sound more logical. Create a horizontal guide to allow horizontal alignment, create a Vertical Guide to allow vertical alignment.

The simple addition of the word “alignment” (their purpose) to the names swaps their meaning around: “Vertical Guide” becomes “Vertical Alignment Guide”, and “Horizontal Guide” becomes “Horizontal Alignment Guide”.

If we had Horizontal Alignment Guides it would be entirely reasonable to expect them to facilitate horizontal alignment; likewise, if we had Vertical Alignment Guides it would be entirely reasonable to expect them to facilitate vertical alignment. But we don’t have those: what we have are Horizontal Guides and Vertical Guides, with the name in each case describing (as most of us expect) the orientation rather than the purpose of the guide.

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5 minutes ago, Alfred said:

If we had Horizontal Alignment Guides it would be entirely reasonable to expect them to facilitate horizontal alignment; likewise, if we had Vertical Alignment Guides it would be entirely reasonable to expect them to facilitate vertical alignment. But we don’t have those: what we have are Horizontal Guides and Vertical Guides, with the name in each case describing (as most of us expect) the orientation rather than the purpose of the guide.

Would be a good thing if that would be added for the purpose and not the lines orientation.
Because the Horizontal lines dividing the Vertical measuring.

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There is, an oddly useful at times app on Mac called xScope I've often wondered if some of it's features could be worked into Affinity apps and include snapping.

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19 minutes ago, Alfred said:

what we have are Horizontal Guides and Vertical Guides, with the name in each case describing (as most of us expect) the orientation rather than the purpose of the guide

Hence my question above:

41 minutes ago, GarryP said:

Do we name things after what they look like or do we name them after what they are used for?

For instance, do we name the Assistant Manager the “Assistant Manager” or do we name it the “Tuxedo Button”?
I realise that’s being a bit facetious, but hopefully it gets the idea across in a memorable way.

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Well as said in the beginning of this thread, the guides and dragging them onto the canvas do follow here UI-wise the rulers orientation. Aka dragging a horizontal guide line from top towards the bottom is easier to visualize in a software UI than dragging that horizontal line from left towards the right side. And vice versa for the handling of vertical guide lines UI-wise here. - The whole is mostly common usage in software UI handling implementations.

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Horizontal lines are called "horizontal" because they are aligned horizontal. Vertical lines are called "vertical" because they are aligned vertical. No matter what you use them for (for example, to measure a horizontal distance, you would use two vertical lines). But you can also use guides for different things. For example to snap selections to them.

Every graphics program I know defines guidelines the same way as Affinity does. It would be verry confusing to call horizontal guidelines "vertical", I think, because, as I already said and everyone can see, they are aligned horizontal.

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2 hours ago, AndRo Marian said:

Even a video here:


I mean when you are measuring Vertically, you end with a doing a Horizontal line in front of the number or below the ruler.
In this video the perspective is Horizontally, so the Guide will be Vertically, from right to left.


So, get a ruler (You want to measure the 10 cm from top), Put the ruler Vertically and draw a Horizontal line under Ruler or on front of the indicator of 10 cm.
That's what I expected to see on the Guide Manager, Going to Vertical, add a guide that should be Horizontally from Top to Bottom.

Like how @GarryP says above. My perspective is not how the Guides (Lines) are oriented.

You may use the ruler but you draw a vertical guide line, you then get a square or some such and draw a vertical line, using the tape isn't the guide it's the tool for measuring where the guide will be placed,  just like the rulers are on the workspace, the small mini vertical mark is drawn to enable the precise placement of a vertical guide.

tenor.gif.28a3b8b1f748b64b7ad6c0cc7df06ae9.gif

😆

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14 minutes ago, firstdefence said:

You may use the ruler but you draw a vertical guide line, you then get a square or some such and draw a vertical line, using the tape isn't the guide it's the tool for measuring where the guide will be placed,  just like the rulers are on the workspace, the small mini vertical mark is drawn to enable the precise placement of a vertical guide.

tenor.gif.28a3b8b1f748b64b7ad6c0cc7df06ae9.gif

😆

You say already what I say previously! What you want to show here?
You draw the Vertical guide because the ruler is Horizontal.
So, when you measure Vertical you put horizontal guide. When measuring Horizontal, you put Vertical line.
When you are thinking to measure Vertically, you already know there are Horizontal Lines...

But in the Guide Manager, when you thinking to Vertical measurement, there are to Horizontal Guides and not Vertical...

And I say again, this is not how the Guides, Lines are oriented on screen. Is just the Guide Manager perception and thinking on a real ruler conception and working.

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5 minutes ago, AndRo Marian said:

You say already what I say previously! What you want to show here?
You draw the Vertical guide because the ruler is Horizontal.
So, when you measure Vertical you put horizontal guide. When measuring Horizontal, you put Vertical line.
When you are thinking to measure Vertically, you already know there are Horizontal Lines...

But in the Guide Manager, when you thinking to Vertical measurement, there are to Horizontal Guides and not Vertical...

And I say again, this is not how the Guides, Lines are oriented on screen. Is just the Guide Manager perception and thinking.

But what is your problem? Guidelines are universal tools. Not only for measuring, related to the rulers. So it is obvious to call them "horizontal" if they are horizontal, and "vertical" if they are vertical, no matter what you want to do with it. They are called as they are, not what you personally want to use them for in your special case.

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14 minutes ago, AndRo Marian said:

You say already what I say previously! What you want to show here?
You draw the Vertical guide because the ruler is Horizontal.
So, when you measure Vertical you put horizontal guide. When measuring Horizontal, you put Vertical line.

But you are talking about two different things, rulers and guides, rulers aren't guides, it's a measuring tool whether that be between two points or to mark individual points, that's why the marks on a ruler are vertical when placed in a horizontal position, so you know where to mark for a vertical guide, a vertical guide is just that a guide that is vertical. A ruler or tape is an aid to placement of a guide line.

What you want is a vertically moving guide, or a horizontally moving guide, but a vertically moving guide is horizontal in it's orientation and that makes more sense, that guides ability enables it to move vertically but it's a bit of a mouthful to have in a GUI Horizontally moving vertical guide... 

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29 minutes ago, firstdefence said:

But you are talking about two different things, rulers and guides, rulers aren't guides, it's a measuring tool whether that be between two points or to mark individual points, that's why the marks on a ruler are vertical when placed in a horizontal position, so you know where to mark for a vertical guide, a vertical guide is just that a guide that is vertical. A ruler or tape is an aid to placement of a guide line.

What you want is a vertically moving guide, or a horizontally moving guide.  

Already say that previously.
Some people already get it.

What hard is to understand this:

1. I have a 200x400 wood.
2. I want to cut in half Vertically (400 Height), so I need to measure Vertically and draw a Horizontal Guide under the ruler.
3. Going to Guide Manager -> Vertical -> New 200. Now there should add a Horizontal Line (not Vertical) at the Y axes of the Vertical.

In that case the Vertical would be the document Heignt and the Horizontal document Width.

In current perception: The Vertical is the document Width and the Horizontal document Height.

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2 minutes ago, AndRo Marian said:

Already say that previously.
Some people already get it.

What hard is to understand this:

1. I have a 200x400 wood.
2. I want to cut in half Vertically (The long one), so I need to measure Vertically and draw a Horizontal Guide under the ruler.
3. Going to Guide Manager -> Vertical -> New 200. Now there should add a Horizontal Line, not Vertical.

In that case the Vertical would be the document Heignt and the Horizontal document Width.

In current perception: The Vertical is the document Width and the Horizontal document Width.

That is not really hard to understand. Your problem is that you only assess the guides for your purposes: measurement. But it is not compelling that a guide, you want to use for horizontal measuring, has to be horizontal. If you measure the groundplan of a house, you will strike stakes into the ground to set measurement points. And these stakes will normally stand vertical - even the area you want to measure is horizontal. In that case, the stake is just a boundary, an end point, for a line, just the same a s the guide is.

Guides are no rulers. But you can use them to mark positions related to the rulers. But, of course, in that case you must use horizontal guides for vertical marks and vertical guides for horizontal marks. By the way just the same as you did in your video clip, as you made analogue pen lines related to a ruler.

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13 minutes ago, AndRo Marian said:

Already say that previously.
Some people already get it.

What hard is to understand this:

1. I have a 200x400 wood.
2. I want to cut in half Vertically (400 Height), so I need to measure Vertically and draw a Horizontal Guide under the ruler.
3. Going to Guide Manager -> Vertical -> New 200. Now there should add a Horizontal Line (not Vertical) at the Y axes of the Vertical.

In that case the Vertical would be the document Heignt and the Horizontal document Width.

In current perception: The Vertical is the document Width and the Horizontal document Height.

It's not hard, it's just over complicating something that is already understood, the function of a guide is implied and the curious will soon understand how a simple guide works

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2 minutes ago, AndRo Marian said:

For me is pretty weird that the Vertical is opposite of Height, Horizontal opposite to Width.

Vertical = Height, Horizontal = Width. I can't think every time to the opposite of to them.

But this seems to be your verry personal problem, because, as I already said two times, all graphics programs call guides "vertical" if they are aligned vertical. and "horizontal" if they are aligned horizontal. If you want to measure a height or width, you should better take a look at the rulers. Guides could help you to fix the points on the rulers where the wanted height or width lies. But guides have no scales. So you will need the rulers for that.

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3 hours ago, AndRo Marian said:

For me is pretty weird that the Vertical is opposite of Height, Horizontal opposite to Width.

Vertical = Height, Horizontal = Width. I can't think every time to the opposite of to them.

Horizontal is from Horizon. That is not a thing that is vertical. I want a Horizontal guide because I am going to be drawing something on the horizon.

Width/Height are distances. Width can run from left to right, North to South, near to far, and even up and down.

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