Problem with images without color profile

[Verso Fab]

Hello,

 

When I open an image without a color profile, I no longer have a warning (before there was a warning window that was displayed for 5s) and the image is systematically forced to sRGB.

I tried several configurations in the "preferences" menu, without success.

An idea ?

Verso

[Gnobelix]

Hello @Verso Fab,

Welcome to the forums.

Enable in the settings colour
"Convert open files into workspace"

 

Cheers

 

[Verso Fab]

Thank you for your answer, Globelix.

I tried this option : it converts the file to Adobe RGB, but without indicating that the open file has no profile (screenshot 3) ...

Prior to version 1.9.2, there was a warning message indicating that the open file did not have a color profile (screenshot 4).

It seems to have disappeared?

[Verso Fab]

For illustration, here is what Photoshop CS6 indicates when you open the file. We can clearly see that the file does not have a color profile.

[Verso Fab]

Thank you for your answer, Gnobelix... sorry !

Edited April 13, 2021 by Verso Fab

[laurentia]

Hi,
the problem address images without an embedded profile opened in Photo.
- By default, the image is displayed in Photo as being in sRGB. But is this an assignment or a conversion? If it's a conversion, what is it based on, since we don't know what colorspace it was created in?
- If the "Convert open files into workspace" box is checked, Photo displays the image as being in the workspace defined in the preferences and displays the warning message. But again, is this a real conversion or a profile assignment? If it's a conversion, the problem is the same: what is it based on, since we still don't know which colorspace the image was created in?

It would be good if in this case of an image without a profile, Photo asked the user what to do and left the choice of the space to be applied to avoid conversion mistakes.

Photo 1.9.2.1035

[Verso Fab]

I could not answer between attribution and conversion ...  ;-)

What is a "shame", all the same, is the disappearance (with v1.9.2?) of the alert message indicating the absence of a profile ...

[laurentia]

My questions are primarily addressed to developers ...
 

[walt.farrell]

26 minutes ago, laurentia said:

My questions are primarily addressed to developers ...
 

Yes, but

1. Everyone is welcome to comment here; and
2. Often users can provide an answer quicker than you'd get by waiting for someone from the Serif staff to respond. There are many of us, and relatively few of them

In this particular case, I agree that the warning seems to be missing. I haven't seen it since sometime in the 1.8 timeframe; I do not think this is new with 1.9.

Also, it can take awhile for the Serif team to get to any individual topic. They use a ticketing system and try to process requests in order, but that also depends to some extent on who is available at any given time. And right now, as mentioned at the top of this forum:

 

[Joachim_L]

9 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

In this particular case, I agree that the warning seems to be missing.

I think this is not the point here. For myself I get a warning when I open a non-profiled file (if I have it set up in preferences). The real concern is, that if "Convert opened files to working space" is unchecked, the file is converted / assigned to a profile anyway. To my understanding unchecking "Convert opened ..." means, that I "disallow" a conversion.

[walt.farrell]

2 minutes ago, Joachim_L said:

For myself I get a warning when I open a non-profiled file (if I have it set up in preferences).

Interesting. Can you attach a file that generates a warning, please? Perhaps my test files are simply not constructed properly.

3 minutes ago, Joachim_L said:

The real concern is, that if "Convert opened files to working space" is unchecked, the file is converted / assigned to a profile anyway. To my understanding unchecking "Convert opened ..." means, that I "disallow" a conversion.

A file that you are working on in Affinity must have a color space and color profile. The only question is whether it is the "working profile" you specified or its original profile. But Affinity must have some profile to use.

If you were to try to open a file with no profile information, and if Affinity were to honor the preference as you think it should, the only possible action would be for Affinity to refuse to Open it. So the only choices are: refuse to open it, or Open it and convert to working profile, or Open it and convert to working profile and warn you,

Refusing to Open it would not be useful. Presumably you want to work on the file, and so you would either need to find a different program, or change the preference to allow it to be converted (really, assigned) to the working profile.................

[laurentia]

2 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

1. Often users can provide an answer quicker than you'd get by waiting for someone from the Serif staff to respond. There are many of us, and relatively few of them 

 

No one has said otherwise and that is not the question. The user can see what is happening and the developer knows what he has written.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

You don't seem to understand the problem. Converting an image from one color space to another is done by matrix translation of the RGB values of each pixel. Without the knowledge of the source color space, you can't calculate the correct values in the target space. It's as simple as that.
AF Photo can only assume that the image is defined in an arbitrary space, a priori the sRGB, and then performs its calculation which can only generate errors and a degraded image if the starting color space is different and more wide than sRGB.
It would be better if Photo offered the user a wider choice, one of which would be to assign the space of his choice before opening the image (like Photoshop).
Usually this choice does not have to be the workspace but the space in which the image was originally created. This is where the result of the conversion will be good.

[walt.farrell]

8 minutes ago, laurentia said:

It would be better if Photo offered the user a wider choice, one of which would be to assign the space of his choice before opening the image (like Photoshop).

I think (but am not sure) that if presented with an image with no color profile information, Affinity will assign the space that you have chosen as your working space. It can't do a conversion because (as you pointed out) it does not know the source profile. So it can only do an assignment.

[laurentia]

In fact, Photo seems to first make a presumably sRGB assignment and depending on the choice made in the preferences, displays it as is or converts it in the workspace.
In the case of an image defined in ProPhoto RGB for example, you can easily imagine the damage!
The cleanest solution would be to let the user make the assignment of his choice instead of making an arbitrary one that has little chance of being the right one.

[walt.farrell]

32 minutes ago, laurentia said:

The cleanest solution would be to let the user make the assignment of his choice instead of making an arbitrary one that has little chance of being the right one.

But the user can also easily Assign a different one, if they know what it is.

And, in most cases, won't the image have some information about the color profile (at least the name)? If it doesn't, the user will be guessing, too.

[Verso Fab]

First of all, thank you all for your responses.

As for the lack of warning of the missing profile, that is indeed the main topic.

With the warning validated but not the conversion (see screenshot), we should at least have the warning (this was also the case before this version).
There, we will be in sRGB, but we do not know if the open file is natively sRGB, or if it is a file without profile which has been converted in this space ...

Afterwards, indeed, it would be desirable to have the choice of the destination space, but we have it implicitly if we check "convert".

[Verso Fab]

An example of file without profil.

(the profil, ProPhoto L*, has been removed)

[Gabe]

Hi all,

Tanks for spotting this. Issue logged. 

Just to clarify. The bug is that the "Warn when assigning working profile to unprofiled files" does not warn/assign the correct profile. However, the "Convert opened files to working space" and "warn" work as expected. 

[walt.farrell]

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

Just to clarify. The bug is that the "Warn when assigning working profile to unprofiled files" does not warn/assign the correct profile

Does not warn? Or does not assign? Or both?

(If it does not assign, what color profile ends up being used?)

[Gabe]

It's both. It does't warn, and it assigns sRGB instead of the selected profile in Preferences. 

[laurentia]

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

It's both. It does't warn, and it assigns sRGB instead of the selected profile in Preferences. 

Hi,

That's the basic problem! Why assume that the original space is sRGB?!
Ok, we have to start from something, but it is better to leave this choice to the user! A drop-down box is not so difficult to code, it has been done elsewhere without difficulty.

[Verso Fab]

5 hours ago, Gabe said:

It's both. It does't warn, and it assigns sRGB instead of the selected profile in Preferences. 

Not for me...

When the "convert open files into workspace" box (and "and warn" is checked), the file is successfully converted into the workspace (here ProPhoto L*, not sRGB), and the warning is displayed.

 

After, the other problem is : how does it works ? the file without profil (PhoPhoto L* removed by me) converted in ProPhoto L* has no the same colors as the original file with the profil... but it seems to me that's an impossible thing to do : AP doesn't know original profile...

[Verso Fab]

The original file with the ProPhoto L* profile, for illustration :

[Gabe]

I'm not really sure what you're trying to achieve. If you don't want to convert them to your working space, why do you have the tick box checked?Convert is meant to convert from the embedded space to what you have selected in the preferences. Assign should use the profile selected in the same menu and assign that to the unprofiled document. As it is now, it assigns sRGB. You would then need to manually assign the correct profile in Document > Assign ICC profile. I've already said it's a bug and logged with our developers, and you have a simple workaround. 

Trying to convert an unprofiled document is wrong, as there is no source ICC, so you need to assign it a profile at some point anyways. 

[Verso Fab]

Thank you for your answers.

If I understood correctly, there are chances that we will find the alert of absence of profile in the next update?