Vector lines created in 1.8.5 print incorrectly as raster in 1.9.2 using Trotec JobControl

[Steve_N]

Hi Team,

There seems to be a problem in the way AD versions 1.9.0 through to 1.9.2 recognise and pass vector line information to our Trotec 'JobControl' print driver. The print/render will now produce a raster red line instead of a vector for files created in any version prior -> 1.8.5. If I redraw that very same line (then snap it to the existing path in 1.9.2 Beta for example) and print the file to JobControl, the line will print correctly.

We have hundreds of files with complex cutting Artboards in them. As it stands we will have to recreate every red cut line from every shape and layout if versions 1.9.0+ will not print lines created in previous versions. The only way to get around this is to export every file to .eps format first. But then we lose all the group/layer stacking and colour tagging which is used for hiding and printing different combinations of large piece-count layout files.

Another change in 1.9.0+ is that it does not recognise the 'Defined by driver' paper size in the AD print settings used to print to the correct laser-bed sized file. I now have to change the setting to 'custom' each time in the AD print dialogue and enter the size manually to have it set the correct 610mm x 305mm file table size. 

I have been printing for two and a half years into JobControl using exact RGB colour values for both red and blue vector cuts. Stroke width is not critical as long as it is sub 0.05mm, I always set ours to 0.02mm. I mention this because I have read a number of posts here on the forums which believe a critical 'hairline width' for Job Control is necessary for cut lines to be recognised and rendered. This is not so. JobControl is more concerned with the RGB value and seems to accept any stroke value under 0.05mm (0.14pt).

I have tried the printing process with numerous files created in versions ->1.8.5 and all red/blue vectors seems to behave the same.

I am keen to get to the bottom of this as it's a big time-consuming workaround for us for years to come if the files can't translate into future AD versions for easy, reliable laser printing.

Can provide files and system info through a secure channel.

[Dazmondo77]

My conclusion is that Affinity's current print capability is only meant for light home use, which really needs to change to be taken seriously in the print industry, yes I know all modern rips are primarily built to handle a PDF workflow, but if I was to recommend Affinity to one of the Printers I send to, just as a up an coming alternative to Adobe stuff, I'm sure the first thing they would do would be to open up a standard profile page and print to a postscript laser for a rough balance of how it handles colour and vector information, which is currently a massive FAIL - In my tests, I get all CMYK converted to RGB and back to CMYK when it hits the printer and all vectors seem to rasterise before hitting the rip ?!?!?!?

Steve_N - it looks as though you've had a little success (pre 1.9) so looks like affinity's print engine can (or could) actually sent vector information providing it's RGB to begin with? although this is now broke and it looks like you're probably getting what I get when trying to send a proof direct from Affinity = pre rasterised vectors - it sounds as though your workflow is reliant on switching on and off layers from within Affinity? so I'm sorry I can't offer a workaround - the obvious would be to make PDF's and print via Acrobat, which would cause you a sacks of grief by my understanding of your workflow.

Maybe other users could a do-able workaround or maybe Affinity 2.0 may surprise us all and match anything Adobe has had over the years, although we could be waiting years fro 2.0? 

[Steve_N]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

The reality is I have now given up considering moving past 1.8.5. Too much time wasted resetting custom interface data after every install, then test, fail, mental-breakdown, uninstall, reset! I'm VERY concerned this is going to have serious implications for our design process as we move forward with future work, and our regressive "locked-in"  AD version as the ecosystem evolves.

On 4/6/2021 at 7:44 PM, Dazmondo77 said:

My conclusion is that Affinity's current print capability is only meant for light home use, which really needs to change to be taken seriously in the print industry...

This may be true. However our only concern has been AD was at least 'workable'. It certainly wasn't flawless by any stretch! There were often bugs and time consuming workarounds, although at least workable.

On 4/6/2021 at 7:44 PM, Dazmondo77 said:

Steve_N - it looks as though you've had a little success (pre 1.9) so looks like affinity's print engine can (or could) actually sent vector information providing it's RGB to begin with?...

Again true. We've only ever needed to remain in RGB for our design process, and printing to JobControl.

As eluded above, our biggest worry? Every version from this point on will make it increasingly difficult to continue using AD for design layout work and essential subsequent printing of complex JobControl cutting files. I believe it has something to do with the new "Stroke/Outline expand/Shrink As all software does, 1.8.5 will eventually reach a point where it begins to have compatibility "issues" with either our OS version or software developed with more modern code/API's. We'll then be further 'stuck'.

Is there any input/thoughts on this matter from Serif dev's or those 'in-the-know' here? I really am nervous as I didn't consider the workflow using my AD/JobControl combo getting harder, but rather 'easier' as versions evolved! Seriously, this may not be the case now and we have years worth of designs embedded in the Affinity ecosystem.

[Steve_N]

Oh dear, I've realised I no longer have the ability to open our "Photo" files in AD 1.8.5 as that is version 1.9.2, and it has our businesses "release worth" of edited product shots saved in it.  The "Open in Designer/Photo" is lost.

I only realised this when I tried to  use cross-compatibility for the only live distort -> perspective tool offered in Affinity, which is in Photo.

Why, why why are there no text perspective distort tools in Designer? Argh.

Please Serif, it's excellent that you had foresight to engineer great flexibility between the two/three apps, however that becomes moot if newer versions change core function, which then involuntarily forces that version matching workflow to break.

I cannot revert back to 1.8.5 with Photo. Well not easily anyway. Yes, I could export to .psd then re-import, but that always leaves some previously editable content "uneditable" afterwards. It becomes a tail-chase.

This program absolutely should be able to print its output reliably and within current professional conventions. It is afterall "Designer" and marketed for being used as a professional vector design tool, yes?

[MattP]

Hopefully this issue is resolved in the current beta!

[Steve_N]

On 5/6/2021 at 10:03 PM, MattP said:

Hopefully this issue is resolved in the current beta!

Hi MattP,

I would have loved it if this was the case, however unfortunately the problem has not improved at all and only become worse. 

I installed 1.10 and JobControl on a separate (3rd machine of mine) so that I could test this without decapitating my primary laser cutting/graphics computer. 

Aside from the raster output issues, files printed from Designer 1.9 -> 1.10 / JobControl mostly do not even work at all now. When I try to print a file, various outcomes happen depending on the program's mood.

1. 8 times out of 10 the print simply outputs nothing and doesn't create a file at all.
2. The attempted print completely deactivates the windows print function and tells me there is no printer installed and to reboot the machine or install a printer.  This was also happening with 1.9 on my main machine when I frist starting encountering later version issues.
3. If I mess with the print dialogue setting enough I MIGHT be able to get one to print,  UNTIL I use a file that was created and saved with 1.9, 1.9.2, 1.10

The print ability now seems a complete "hit or miss" affair.

Before I installed 1.10 on the 3rd machine I tried printing files with 1.8.5 and they output correctly, so this is definitely an issue with designer's later versions.

I should also mention that both machines which I tested later versions on are quite decently spec'ed PC's. One is still running Win 7 Pro and my main laser cutting PC is on Win 10 Pro.

So, the exact same result on two completely different systems with different graphics cards/drivers.

What is the solution for this?

[Steve_N]

13 hours ago, BofG said:

Can your trotec software open pdf files?

No, not at all.  JobControl only opens it's own native .tsf files for laser machine specific control. It's proprietary (and painfully "locked down").

13 hours ago, BofG said:

Edit - actually it doesn't need to, you can print from Adobe Reader in the manner that you have been from Affinity.

Thanks for your suggestion, however it really does all need to be printed directly from AD. If it were as easy as your suggestion then I wouldn't be so worried about getting to the bottom of this JobControl print issue. In all honesty, I will seriously consider abandoning AD for all our design work before I entertain the idea of jambing in a another time-consuming third file workaround.

However, don't forget that another component of this issue for me is that changes in latest AD versions are now creating additional print failures as listed in my follow up above. 

 

13 hours ago, BofG said:

I'd simply swap over to pdf format each time I used a file, that will preserve your layers etc.

I know it sounds "simple", when thinking of managing printing, however let me reiterate again; it's not when dealing with trotec proprietary cut files including hundreds (sometimes thousands) of pieces on each sheet and with varying colour cuts.  It's difficult and time-consuming enough for one person printing single-use/purpose cutting files for every single layout variation without being expected to "manage" printing of those origin layout files through a third itermediary app.

Add to this; by necessity (that being a laser cutter requiring it's own fire hazard and ambient temperature control monitoring), the laser is in a different building from my design office where I need to "print" the actual cutting files and send over our network to the machine pc. The nature of our unique design/handmade product means I am always making many alterations to files before we settle on the perfect engrave/cut settings for that particular design. It's how we've managed to carve out an attention to detail reputation in fit/finish for our niche micro-market.

13 hours ago, BofG said:

Maybe a slight pain if you want to hide/show layers at print time

And therein lies the 'elephant in the room' behind this JobControl print dilemma. It's not simply a 'slight pain', it adds exponentially to the time required through our lengthy layout-file, laser-cutting process. Particularly once I position a full sheet requiring accurate manually positioned, reverse-side "engrave flipping", then realise it all needs readjusting and rejigging before printing again.

In short, working from a file, of a file, of an origin file is ridiculously prohibitive.

Our laser process is simply a "means-to-the-end" for our handmade product, not the "final product" maker which is how most commercial businesses use a laser cutter/engraver. We're not the type of business who pumps out mass produced, identical-sized ID tags, or four metre wide "one-off" commercial signage.

Hope this all makes sense??...

[Steve_N]

11 hours ago, BofG said:

I see, I thought it was more a library of fixed designs that maybe needed altering once in a while.

I wish that were the case. Thanks again for trying to assist.

11 hours ago, BofG said:

given how many printing bugs have cropped up in Affinity it's probably not the best long term solution

Again, probably true. Although I don't quite understand how Serif could possibly view this as a relatively unimportant software function in 2021. Perhaps the iPad focus is clouding their perspective and they see it as no longer worth much time invested?  Why bring Publisher to the table though if this were true?...

11 hours ago, BofG said:

If it's key to your business then it's probably worth moving to other software.

It difinitely is key, although so is the design/creation aspect. And for that I have become very comfortable in the workflow benefit AD still offers us.

Moving software is a harsh reality I'm desparately hoping to avoid. These things are always "damned if you do, damned if you don't" and will hurt either way. However, the number of indicators forcing me in that direction are increasing with each update. Oh dear! 

At this point our little biz can't afford much spare time while I get comfortable with a new design app. I have no idea which software could adequately replace AD. Illustrator is not an option (it's not just the money and it's a long story).  I've checked out various potential budget replacements but I'm still unsure how workable they would be without actually using each one and committing to it. 

Inkscape feels like pulling teeth for me every time I attempt to design in it. Corel at $549 /yr is more than we'd like for one extra element in our overall yearly $ outlay. I really feel caught between a rock and a hard place.

[Steve_N]

2 hours ago, BofG said:

Perhaps you could keep your old AD version just for printing from.

Absolutely the plan for now. Am leaving the design/print pc on 1.8.5 which was my last stable version.

2 hours ago, BofG said:

I'm in a similar situation to you - I run a cutting plotter

Ah I see, nice to know I'm not an isolated case on this type of print/cutter issue. @Dazmondo77 above also expressed similar concern regarding print deficiencies.

2 hours ago, BofG said:

I've now turned off all updates and am running 1.8.3

Sounds like a logical necessity I agree. 1.9 through 1.10 broke a lot more than just reliable vector print output for me. Seems to have almost completely decapitated print ability to the trotec driver on both my Win 7 / 10 Pro computers. 

3 hours ago, BofG said:

still release updates like it's a start up where the only users are those experimenting with it, not those who rely on it as a business tool.

Yes, I agree. I can certainly appreciate Serif are trying to push hard developing the platform as an entire 'wired' ecosystem. But it is really difficult for me to now maintain interoperability between Designer and Photo because they're on different versions. Having product photo edits already saved in Photo 1.9.2  is challenging because I often pull them into Designer to comp up our release product card designs then send those off for "real" product card printing. It's a logistical brain-bender now as I'm sure you can attest.
I saved so many image edits in Photo 1.9.2 before I realised Designer 1.9.2 laser printing was broken. So as you initially suggested for that I have to export instead of opening natively. But now I have to be really careful that I don't forget and save a file in Photo 1.9.2 which originated from Designer 1.8.5

I guess I'll see where I end up over the next year or so.