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It's intentional, and not a bug.

 

-- Walt

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6 hours ago, ashf said:

Hmm, whatever the reason is, it's not intuitive...

He is completely "unintuitive" the whole concept of pseudo locking without locking content in Affinity applications.

And unfortunately, Serif does not even understand and does not respect the needs of users.

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  • 4 weeks later...

To make the background/bottom layer largely immune to clicks and accidental selections, group it with itself, then lock the group as well.

Or even better:
Place an empty group layer underneath.

^ Alright, the latter will still react to marquee selections if the background layer is selected, e.g. cmd-drag will move the selected pixels.
So grouping with itself may be the better option. The "worst" thing that can happen then is that while a marquee is active on the locked group layer, cmd-drag will move the whole group.

Edited by loukash
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I think it is reasonable to assume that when someone opens an image in their image editing software, such as Photo or Designer, they would expect to be able to edit that image immediately.
If the image (the initial Pixel Layer) was not selectable then that would greatly limit the amount of editing that could be done to that image until it was unlocked. In other words, you wouldn’t be able to paint on it, or make a selection, or do some touch-ups, etc., etc.

Therefore, the initial Pixel Layer needs to be selectable. Otherwise we would get a load of complaints from people saying that they can’t edit their image because they didn’t realise that they had to unlock the layer before they could select it and, therefore, do anything.
Having to unlock the initial pixel layer for it to be selectable, every time someone opened an image, would be a step in the wrong direction.

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40 minutes ago, GarryP said:

I think it is reasonable to assume that when someone opens an image in their image editing software, such as Photo or Designer, they would expect to be able to edit that image immediately.
If the image (the initial Pixel Layer) was not selectable then that would greatly limit the amount of editing that could be done to that image until it was unlocked. In other words, you wouldn’t be able to paint on it, or make a selection, or do some touch-ups, etc., etc.

Therefore, the initial Pixel Layer needs to be selectable. Otherwise we would get a load of complaints from people saying that they can’t edit their image because they didn’t realise that they had to unlock the layer before they could select it and, therefore, do anything.
Having to unlock the initial pixel layer for it to be selectable, every time someone opened an image, would be a step in the wrong direction.

And why shouldn't it be possible for the user to choose (in Preferences) whether to keep the open image unlocked (and allow all its modifications, even completely destructive), or to lock it completely immediately after opening (and then prevent any modification thereof)?

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I can’t see a problem with the user having an option to make the initial Pixel Layer unlocked when opening an image.
That seems quite reasonable to me, and I was not advocating against that, but I’ve not put too much thought into it.

However, I can’t really see any benefit from preventing any modification at all because of my reasoning above.
Is there some reason why someone might want to open an image and not be able to do anything with it? Wouldn’t that be what image viewing software is for?

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19 minutes ago, GarryP said:

Is there some reason why someone might want to open an image and not be able to do anything with it?

Maybe because he uses it as a source for cloning? Or does it use only parts from it to create a collage? Because it uses it as a basis for clipping? Because.....

P.S. Finding reasons and excuses for why a "locked" layer should or should not be locked is, in my opinion, equally secondary. The main problem is that the lock is not a lock, and users are not allowed to "protect" the contents of the layer according to their needs and their understanding of the lock.

Edited by Pšenda

Affinity Store: Affinity Suite (ADe, APh, APu) 1.8.5.703.
Windows 10 Pro, Version 20H2, Build 19042.610.
Dell Latitude E5570, i5-6440HQ 2.60 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics 530, 1920 x 1080.
Dell OptiPlex 7060, i5-8500 3.00 GHz, 16 GB, Intel UHD Graphics 630, Dell P2417H 1920 x 1080.
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1 hour ago, Pšenda said:

their understanding of the lock

Pšendo, aren't you the one who's always linking to the help pages? ;)
Soo… how about this one:
affinity.help/photo/English.lproj/pages/LayerOperations/locking.html

Quote

Locking is useful when you need to prevent a layer from being moved or transformed unintentionally.

Well, there it is black on white (or #424242 on #F7FAFC in the forum quote) if a user needs to understand what a lock does.

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I don’t want to get into the “Why doesn’t ‘locked’ mean ‘totally locked’?” debate here as it’s been done to death elsewhere.
However, this thread – unless I have misunderstood – is about the initial Pixel Layer being locked and selectable and I think some decent reasoning has been given as to why it should be selectable.

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1 hour ago, loukash said:

Pšendo, aren't you the one who's always linking to the help pages? ;)
Soo… how about this one:
affinity.help/photo/English.lproj/pages/LayerOperations/locking.html

Well, there it is black on white (or #424242 on #F7FAFC in the forum quote) if a user needs to understand what a lock does.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you understand the meaning of what you're referring to.
I write about the fact that the "user" somehow understands the meaning of locking, and not how he understands it and describes Serif in his help. By the way, exactly what is described in the help is often criticized here - ie insufficient protection of the content of the layers.

Affinity Store: Affinity Suite (ADe, APh, APu) 1.8.5.703.
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Dell OptiPlex 7060, i5-8500 3.00 GHz, 16 GB, Intel UHD Graphics 630, Dell P2417H 1920 x 1080.
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1 minute ago, Pšenda said:

I'm sorry, I don't think you understand the meaning of what you're referring to.

Please stop worrying about me. I do understand the meaning very well. ;)

3 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

By the way, exactly what is described in the help is often criticized here - ie insufficient protection of the content of the layers.

And that's a different point.

My point is that the help exactly describes what locking does. It does not imply that it would do anything else. (Some earlier bugs – as mentioned by MEB in the other thread – notwithstanding.)

Summed up, I'm with @GarryP here: This issue as discussed in this thread is obviously "by design", as the "affinologists" love to call it.

While I would like to have an optional "double-lock" like probably anyone else, my aforementioned grouping workaround is mere two keyboard shortcuts (if assigned) away to give you an almost instant and highly reliable additional protection if needed, until – if at all – a full-lock-option will be implemented.

(And for the record: I keep the "Automatically lock background layer" preference disabled because even an undo of an accidental background layer edit is just a cmd-Z away…)

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1 hour ago, GarryP said:

However, this thread – unless I have misunderstood – is about the initial Pixel Layer being locked and selectable and I think some decent reasoning has been given as to why it should be selectable.

The purpose of the fiber (according to the first post of the OP) is why the "locked" bottom layer can be "selected" if it works properly elsewhere.

On 3/27/2021 at 12:02 AM, ashf said:

Locked pixel layer at the bottom of layer hierarchy is selectable by clicking or dragging.
If it's not at the bottom, it's not selectable.

That there are some reasons for this is one thing, but another thing is - why the user is intentionally confused with the "lock" symbol, when it does not work as a lock at all. And in the bottom layer, this is doubly true.
So let Serif use other some symbols instead of the lock symbol that will better describe the current pseudo-locking.

Affinity Store: Affinity Suite (ADe, APh, APu) 1.8.5.703.
Windows 10 Pro, Version 20H2, Build 19042.610.
Dell Latitude E5570, i5-6440HQ 2.60 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics 530, 1920 x 1080.
Dell OptiPlex 7060, i5-8500 3.00 GHz, 16 GB, Intel UHD Graphics 630, Dell P2417H 1920 x 1080.
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1 minute ago, loukash said:

I do understand the meaning very well. ;)

Then thank you for the link to Help, which has nothing to do with what I wrote.

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Windows 10 Pro, Version 20H2, Build 19042.610.
Dell Latitude E5570, i5-6440HQ 2.60 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics 530, 1920 x 1080.
Dell OptiPlex 7060, i5-8500 3.00 GHz, 16 GB, Intel UHD Graphics 630, Dell P2417H 1920 x 1080.
Intel NUC5PGYH, Pentium N3700 2.40 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics, EIZO EV2456 1920 x 1200.

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9 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

So let Serif use other some symbols instead of the lock symbol that will better describe the current pseudo-locking.

A lock is the very exact symbol to describe what will not happen: an object with a lock will not move.
Hey, if you lock your bike with a chain lock to a fence or to a street lamp pole, I can still come with a spray can and spray your blue bike red, no matter how many locks you've applied to make the bike unmovable.

In other words, by locking your bike with a lock, you're not putting it behind bulletproof glass to make it undestroyable.
(And no, a "locked door" analogy won't cut it because then your bike would be invisible. A "locked door" analogy is placing an opaque layer on top of the layer you want to protect.) *)

So, blame the "other" companies for indoctrinating us for decades with a symbol that does not exactly describe what's happening. :D

14 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

has nothing to do with what I wrote

You wrote:

3 hours ago, Pšenda said:

users are not allowed to "protect" the contents of the layer according to their needs and their understanding of the lock

Emphasis mine, and that was what I've replied to.

Look, when I started to use Affinity years ago, after decades of working with the "other" apps, I was, er… surprised  about Serif's concept of locking as much as the next guy. So I looked up the corresponding Help section, and then I understood. And I have adapted my workflows correspondingly, until (if) a "full-lock" option will be added.

~~~

*) Which just inspired me to another workaround to protect a background layer against accidental painting:

  1. place a pixel layer on top of the background layer
  2. fill it with any opaque color
  3. set its Fill Opacity (FX window) to 0%.

The layer will be fully transparent but it will catch all accidental clicks. As long as it's not locked, that is. :/
So… hm, the earlier grouping trick is still the best.

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1 hour ago, loukash said:

A lock is the very exact symbol to describe what will not happen: an object with a lock will not move.
Hey, if you lock your bike with a chain lock to a fence or to a street lamp pole, I can still come with a spray can and spray your blue bike red, no matter how many locks you've applied to make the bike unmovable.

In other words, by locking your bike with a lock, you're not putting it behind bulletproof glass to make it undestroyable.
(And no, a "locked door" analogy won't cut it because then your bike would be invisible. A "locked door" analogy is placing an opaque layer on top of the layer you want to protect.) *)

Since we are in the world of PC and SW, the analogy with a bicycle is a bit off.
Better analogy from the PC world - I locked the file. Although I can't move it to another directory (okay, that's why I locked it), but I can edit it, and maybe even delete it (thank you - but this lock is completely useless).

 

image.png.d465ccf844da549ea5de8ac39f932a15.png
If I'm talking about understanding the meaning of the lock by the "user", then the link to help - that is, understanding the meaning of the lock by "Serif", is useless at all.
Even if I read the help a hundred times, "my" understanding of the lock (see previous text) is completely different from the understanding of Serif.

Affinity Store: Affinity Suite (ADe, APh, APu) 1.8.5.703.
Windows 10 Pro, Version 20H2, Build 19042.610.
Dell Latitude E5570, i5-6440HQ 2.60 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics 530, 1920 x 1080.
Dell OptiPlex 7060, i5-8500 3.00 GHz, 16 GB, Intel UHD Graphics 630, Dell P2417H 1920 x 1080.
Intel NUC5PGYH, Pentium N3700 2.40 GHz, 8 GB, Intel HD Graphics, EIZO EV2456 1920 x 1200.

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