Lens profile corrections

[R C-R]

9 minutes ago, v_kyr said:

If you look into LensFun db you can see how many lenses that has actually as entries and if they do share similar entries with other lenses of that same kind.

But as I understand it, the problem with relying on LensFun is how long it takes to update the db when new lenses (or new cameras?) hit the market. What I am curious about is what is responsible for that delay, if not the amount of labor needed to keep it all updated with accurate data.

[v_kyr]

23 minutes ago, R C-R said:

But as I understand it, the problem with relying on LensFun is how long it takes to update the db when new lenses (or new cameras?) hit the market. What I am curious about is what is responsible for that delay, if not the amount of labor needed to keep it all updated with accurate data.

Well I think LensFun is overall more based on volunteers here, so individual people who have newly bought certain cams and lens sets/combos and then are also willing to make profiles for the OpenSource community then.

Did anyone here in the forum ever offered for his newest, just bought and pretty new on the market available cam/lens to supply/contribute lens profiles as resources? - Probably not, since it's always easier to ask after ready made reusable ones, or until someone else offers these things then. - Thats the way of cookie crumbles and no matter here if it's libraw or lensfun etc. In the OpenSource scene there is always also a need for kind people who are willing to spend some time and effort for it and of course which also do have the new equipment then in hands.

[NotMyFault]

It might be worth reading this

https://lensfun.github.io/calibration/

https://wilson.bronger.org/calibration

Lens calibration

If your own lens or camera is not part of the database please check http://wilson.bronger.org/lensfun_coverage.html for a daily updated list covering the status of the current development version. Maybe it is already there and your local Lensfun database is out of date.

If your camera or lens is even missing in the development version please request an entry for your camera in the Support Ticket Tracker. For new lenses, the preferred way is to upload RAW images at Lensfun’s calibration service. Lensfun’s database maintainer then creates a lens profile, includes it into the database, and sends a copy to you.

Alternatively, you can do the calibration yourself. Below is a list of several tutorials that can be used as an introduction. Which method you choose depends on your experience and on the effort you want to spend.

Please upload your new profile to the Support Ticket Tracker or send it to our Mailing List and we will include it in the offical database.

Lens calibration tutorials:

• Andreas Schneider’s tutorial and python scripts
• Torsten Bronger’s tutorial and supporting python scripts
• Hugin’s lens calibrator tool
• Original Lensfun tutorial on this website

[NotMyFault]

6 hours ago, R C-R said:

But as I understand it, the problem with relying on LensFun is how long it takes to update the db when new lenses (or new cameras?) hit the market. What I am curious about is what is responsible for that delay, if not the amount of labor needed to keep it all updated with accurate data.

If a user provides the required number of RAW images (see linked posts above, <10 for primes, more for zoom lenses) it could be a matter of days or weeks.

Only one combination of camera and lens is required for lensfun to cover all cameras using the same lens. The camera should be of smallest supported crop factor (e.g. FF camera and lens, not APS-C camera and FF lens). Lensfun is able to scale to cameras with larger crop factors, but not the other way round.

Lensfun uses a simplified mathematical model to speed up computation (while using it to correct images). 
Other apps might use more complex models to achieve higher accuracy, and may require to calibrate every camera with every compatible lens.

[IanSG]

2 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

If a user provides the required number of RAW images (see linked posts above, <10 for primes, more for zoom lenses) it could be a matter of days or weeks.

The images need to be of suitable subjects, selected to highlight the lens' distortions / CA.  The requirements don't seem to be very demanding, but the images would almost certainly need to be taken specificaly for calibration.  For CA and vignetting you also need suitable light.  Again, nothing too demanding, but it all makes the process longer and more time consuming.

[NotMyFault]

22 minutes ago, IanSG said:

The images need to be of suitable subjects, selected to highlight the lens' distortions / CA.  The requirements don't seem to be very demanding, but the images would almost certainly need to be taken specificaly for calibration.  For CA and vignetting you also need suitable light.  Again, nothing too demanding, but it all makes the process longer and more time consuming.

Absolutely.

The key point is:

• there are requests raised again and again to provide support for specific lenses.
• Forum members or mods explain that Affinity simply uses lensfun (plus some extra magic to support CR3 format)
• Users often resist to get this as „included service“ as they have paid for Photo and get frustrated by the answers, or wait passively until someone else takes car.
• The best and fastest way to get a lens supported by photo is to
  • Shoot the required RAW images (user himself)
  • use the calibration services linked above
  • download the updated lensfun DB (explained in a tutorial video).

In the past, the discussion circled in numerous threads over these individual (fragmented) aspects. It might be worth for Affinity to create one overarching tutorial/ help file entry / spotlight article covering the complete process.

[R C-R]

5 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

In the past, the discussion circled in numerous threads over these individual (fragmented) aspects. It might be worth for Affinity to create one overarching tutorial/ help file entry / spotlight article covering the complete process.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

[Kameratrollet]

On 11/29/2021 at 11:24 PM, R C-R said:

Even if they could do that, making the calibrated lens profiles is not a quick & easy process. It requires many steps & specialized equipment. Considering how many new cameras & lenses are released just in a single year, it should be obvious why Serif relies on a third party for this instead of trying to do it all in-house (& pass the added expense on you its customers).

Camera support:

1 minute.

For a prime lens:

5 minutes for creating distortion correction in Hugin.

10 seconds for creating tca correction with the script. 1 picture is enough.

1 minute to take minimum vignetting samples. 10 minutes if you strive for perfection.

For a zoom lens:

5 times longer.

Specialized equipment:

A piece of milky plexiglas.

https://kameratrollet.se/create-your-own-lens-correction-data-for-lensfun/

[Kameratrollet]

On 11/29/2021 at 7:21 AM, somethingp said:

Can they not at least provide a warning before purchase that many recently released lenses are not supported (even if the lenses are very popular), and will not be supported unless they are added by a community run database over which Serif has no control? I purchased the software without even knowing this could possibly be a problem (coming from lightroom where I've never encountered a missing lens profile). And, no, serif wouldn't need to purchase every camera and lens. If reviewers can get free loaners, I'm sure Serif could build partnerships with manufacturers to borrow lenses and cameras at no cost.

One year for some RF lenses.

[R C-R]

41 minutes ago, Kameratrollet said:

Camera support:

1 minute.

For a prime lens:

5 minutes for creating distortion correction in Hugin.

10 seconds for creating tca correction with the script. 1 picture is enough.

1 minute to take minimum vignetting samples. 10 minutes if you strive for perfection.

For a zoom lens:

5 times longer.

Specialized equipment:

A piece of milky plexiglas.

https://kameratrollet.se/create-your-own-lens-correction-data-for-lensfun/

But how many camera & lens combinations do you think Serif should be trying to do this for? They would have to get samples of each camera & lens, which by itself could be difficult without the cooperation of all the camera & lens makers. Someone at Serif would need to make sure each item was handled carefully so it returned in good condition to the correct supplier after all the data was collected, & that each step in the correction process was done correctly & as accurately as possible.

IOW, it isn't just the time it takes to get the data for one camera/lens combination once they have both items in their possession, it is all the time it takes to do this for even a tiny fraction of all the combinations end users might have & want supported by AP.

[Kameratrollet]

11 hours ago, R C-R said:

But how many camera & lens combinations do you think Serif should be trying to do this for? They would have to get samples of each camera & lens, which by itself could be difficult without the cooperation of all the camera & lens makers. Someone at Serif would need to make sure each item was handled carefully so it returned in good condition to the correct supplier after all the data was collected, & that each step in the correction process was done correctly & as accurately as possible.

IOW, it isn't just the time it takes to get the data for one camera/lens combination once they have both items in their possession, it is all the time it takes to do this for even a tiny fraction of all the combinations end users might have & want supported by AP.

For Canon:

Get Canon EOS M and Canon EOS RP with a RF/EF adapter. No need for R5, R6, 1D X or any other. Then Serif would be able to rent the most common lenses and contribute to Lensfun project. There are already many profiles ready in issues and pull requests at Github just waiting to be accepted.

A good thing about creating tca correction yourself is that the correction data will be for your lens. I created tca correction for my EF 24-105/4L IS at almost every reported focal lengh. Way better than the official profile in Lensfun.

Capture One has inventet the wheel again and has one profile for EF-M mount. There seems not to be any way for users to profile their own lenses.

Capture One has, what I know, not cracked Canon embedded lens correction data that is written in Exif. For Sony and Fujifilm the embedded lens correction data is available for everyone.

[Kameratrollet]

On 11/29/2021 at 7:21 AM, somethingp said:

Can they not at least provide a warning before purchase that many recently released lenses are not supported (even if the lenses are very popular), and will not be supported unless they are added by a community run database over which Serif has no control? I purchased the software without even knowing this could possibly be a problem (coming from lightroom where I've never encountered a missing lens profile). And, no, serif wouldn't need to purchase every camera and lens. If reviewers can get free loaners, I'm sure Serif could build partnerships with manufacturers to borrow lenses and cameras at no cost.

Which lens are you missing lens correction profile for?

[R C-R]

11 hours ago, Kameratrollet said:

Get Canon EOS M and Canon EOS RP with a RF/EF adapter. No need for R5, R6, 1D X or any other. Then Serif would be able to rent the most common lenses and contribute to Lensfun project. There are already many profiles ready in issues and pull requests at Github just waiting to be accepted.

So you are proposing that Serif "get" these Canon bodies, but from whom? Also, how many lenses do you consider to be "common" ones, particularly ones that volunteers are not already collecting data for?

Same questions for all the other major camera makers, & all the new lenses & bodies added to the market between LensFun updates.

In short, why should Serif be doing this?

[David in Яuislip]

24 minutes ago, R C-R said:

In short, why should Serif be doing this?

Serif claims "Professional lens corrections"
https://affinity.serif.com/en-gb/photo/?mc=AFFPPCGS01&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzJH65e_28QIV04bVCh3j4gGBEAQYASABEgIb9fD_BwE

Of course Professional means different things to different people but I consider it unreasonable for users to be expected to provide calibration data

[Kameratrollet]

35 minutes ago, R C-R said:

So you are proposing that Serif "get" these Canon bodies, but from whom? Also, how many lenses do you consider to be "common" ones, particularly ones that volunteers are not already collecting data for?

Same questions for all the other major camera makers, & all the new lenses & bodies added to the market between LensFun updates.

In short, why should Serif be doing this?

Canon has some lenses that really need distortion correction like RF16, RF14-35, RF24-240. Actually there are already profiles for them, but the one for RF14-35 is really bad.

If Serif wants the possibility to copy all Adobe lens correction profiles with lensfun‑convert‑lcp is an alternative.

[R C-R]

Just now, David in Яuislip said:

Of course Professional means different things to different people but I consider it unreasonable for users to be expected to provide calibration data

So then is it also unreasonable that every "professional" camera maker does not support projects like LensFun? Who is better equipped to provide extremely accurate calibration data for every "professional" camera they make?

[R C-R]

2 minutes ago, Kameratrollet said:

If Serif wants the possibility to copy Adobe lens correction profiles is an alternative.

Is this something Serif could do without infringing on any of Adobe's IP rights?

[Kameratrollet]

4 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Is this something Serif could do without infringing on any of Adobe's IP rights?

You are right https://lensfun.github.io/manual/v0.3.95/lensfun-convert-lcp.html

[David in Яuislip]

1 minute ago, R C-R said:

So then is it also unreasonable that every "professional" camera maker does not support projects like LensFun?

Camera makers sell cameras and generally provide software to handle their raw ouputs, they are under no obligation to help software companies that are selling alternatives, likewise lens makers.

Lensfun is a terrific innitiative where the database is populated by enthusiastic amateurs around the globe. If you compare the corrections with Photolab then professional it ain't

[R C-R]

1 minute ago, David in Яuislip said:

Camera makers sell cameras and generally provide software to handle their raw ouputs, they are under no obligation to help software companies that are selling alternatives, likewise lens makers.

OK, but by the same logic is Serif under any obligation to create & supply profiles to compete with the camera maker's software, just because they claim their own software includes "Professional lens corrections"?

It might be different if they claimed AP provided pro corrections for every lens from every maker, but nobody does that, not even Adobe.

 

[David in Яuislip]

15 minutes ago, R C-R said:

just because they claim their own software includes "Professional lens corrections"?

I think that's a question for Serif's marketing people to answer but I suspect that many people are hacked off because what they consider to be a professional camera or lens isn't currently supported by libraw or lensfun