RAW development and aspect ratio

[NotMyFault]

I know the devs see this as a feature, but actually it is a bug causing lots of trouble:

Canon CR2 (and CR3) files from 24 mp cameras actually contain a bit more than 6000x4000 pixel. Every sane RAW developer software automatically crops the images to exactly 6000x4000, to achieve a clean 3:2 aspect ratio.

Only Affinity Photo insists that it is a feature to keep all pixels, at the price of

1. breaking the aspect ratio
2. causing quality loss (by rasterize & trim, skewed aspect ratio when exporting, non-aligned layers when adding other 3:2 images)
3. forcing manual steps, as there is no one-click way (first crop, select 3:2 ratio, select range, click apply, then rasterize & trim)
4. breaking non-disruptive workflows

The broken aspect ration causes a ton of problems:

1. When you try to export at exact 3:2 aspect ratio and original size (6k x 4k), it is not possible without unlocking the "aspect" lock, introducing a redundant resize (with quality loss)
2. If you want to blend a image with other 3:2 aspect images, you need to either crop & rasterize, or resize first. Otherwise you will get endless trouble, e.g. by non-integer pixel dimensions
3. When using transform, you will get fractions of pixel for size or position)
4. Did you try to pixel-align images (from the same camera, or even the same RAW image, but processed partly in-camera, by Affinity, or other Apps)? It is hell! Divergent pixel dimensions, divergent lens correction (especially distortion, remove vignette), Affinity ignoring CR2 picture profiles (sharpening). So you need to go to "New Stack" first, instead of simple place / copy & paste.
5. Your are actually forced to crop, rasterize & trim manually, immediately after develop. Otherwise the "pixel size / broken aspect ratio" bug will bite you any time later in your workflow.

My request:

• In develop persona, please automatically crop any superflous pixel outside the specified dimensions, to allow clean aspect ratio (mainly 3:2)

Every Camera vendor provides a list of all available image sizes.

https://global.canon/en/c-museum/product/dslr844.html

L (Large) : 24.0 megapixels (6000 x 4000)
M (Medium) : Approx. 10.6 megapixels (3984 x 2656)
S1 (Small 1) : Approx. 5.9 megapixels (2976 x 1984)
S2 (Small 2) : Approx. 2.5 megapixels (1920 x 1280)
S3 (Small 3) : Approx. 350,000 pixels (720 x 480)
RAW : 24.0 megapixels (6000 x 4000)
M-RAW : 13.5 megapixels (4500 x 3000)
S-RAW : 6.0 megapixels (3000 x 2000)

 

PS: Affinity Photo is an exciting product i do love, and i have high respect for the hard work of the developers. Never the less, i hate the countless usability issues never fixed despite freqent request:

• Redundant and iconsitent UI (how many different color pickers UIs depending on function, some blend modes not choosable in live filters)
• Macro recorder far to limited. No edit of Macro steps. No imprt/export to text files.
• Functions differing from industry standards (passthrough blend mode, alpha channel edit, masks for stack only 0 or 1)
• Handling of groups and filters depends on pixel layer in or not
• Lack of regression tests for new major versions 1.6, 1.7, 1.8, 1.9: always a nighmare until .2 oder .3
• No full cross-platform compatibility despite marketing promises (no PT edit in iPad)
• ...

 

 

 

[Chris B]

Hey NotMyFault,

Are your images exactly 24MP? Mine are all 24.22MP so they are coming in at 6024 x 4020. 

It should not affect the aspect ratio though.

[NotMyFault]

1 hour ago, Chris B said:

Hey NotMyFault,

Are your images exactly 24MP? Mine are all 24.22MP so they are coming in at 6024 x 4020. 

It should not affect the aspect ratio though.

Hi Chris,

Can you please try:

1. open the CR2 file, press "Develop",
2. and then try to export,
3. and enter "6000" for px, i get "4004" for py. Do you see the issue now? I cannot export with clean 3:2 aspect.

 

IMG_9173.CR2

[NotMyFault]

Actually, it starts even sooner: just try to crop and the image will immediately loose 4 pixel in y dimension.

Photo is kind of lying to you. It says 6024x4020, but every function will say nada, its only 6024x4016 and you lost you 3:2 aspect ratio.

[NotMyFault]

Actually, 6024x4020 is not 3:2 aspect. Again, this is the main issue.

After hitting develop, the result should have 3:2 aspect, and it does not.

When you crop in dev persona, it shows a 502x335 aspect when using "Orginal Ratio".

So Photo clearly misses to adjust the pixel dimension to a perfect 3:2 ratio, by scraping 4 pixels in y dimension. It would be better to ctop (and trim) to exact 6000x4000 and avoid resizing which introduces additional blur.

.

 

[Old Bruce]

1 minute ago, NotMyFault said:

After hitting develop, the result should have 3:2 aspect ....

That is a faulty premise.

[NotMyFault]

4 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

That is a faulty premise.

I disagree strongly. Every other RAW devlopment app i have used does it, for a good reason.

First an primary, Canon does it in-camera and in DPP.

[walt.farrell]

So why don't you crop it during development. There's no loss of quality involved in that. (And, actually, there's no loss of quality of you crop in the Photo Persona, and Rasterize/Trim.)

So what's the real issue, other than you having to do a crop.

[NotMyFault]

 

22 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

So why don't you crop it during development. There's no loss of quality involved in that. (And, actually, there's no loss of quality of you crop in the Photo Persona, and Rasterize/Trim.)

So what's the real issue, other than you having to do a crop.

I wonder if you tried this by youself?

In Develop Persona, by default you do not get any feedback about the exact pixel dimensions while cropping.

Even in case you activate "info" panel, you won't get any exact size of crop area.

[NotMyFault]

For all who want to say "why just not crop": There is no option in Affinity to define an exact px x py crop area, and shift this area to the place where you want it.

(by numerical values, stored as a preset, not by mouse input)

Resizing the crop area by mouse does not work for me, as it is impossible for my system to get exact 1 pixel steps in 4 different corners, for a 6k x 4k image.

My mouse cursor jumps about 3-5 pixels uncontrollable (i tried several mouse devices and the settings in the driver / OS). My display size is 5K, not VGA.

 

[carl123]

10 minutes ago, NotMyFault said:

For all who want to say "why just not crop": There is no option in Affinity to define an exact px x py crop area, and shift this area to the place where you want it.

(by numerical values, stored as a preset, not by mouse input)

You can set up a Resample crop at 6000px by 4000px and save that as a preset

11 minutes ago, NotMyFault said:

My mouse cursor jumps about 3-5 pixels uncontrollable

Holding the ALT key down allows 1px, non-snapping, controlled movements on Windows (not sure of the key on a Mac)

[NotMyFault]

7 minutes ago, carl123 said:

You can set up a Resample crop at 6000px by 4000px and save that as a preset

Holding the ALT key down allows 1px, non-snapping, controlled movements on Windows (not sure of the key on a Mac)

The resample preset does not define the size in the source pixel layer. Instead, It defines the size of the resampled destination. As I expresivly do not want to resample, this will not help at all.

Holding the ALT key does not help to get 1 pixel steps if you at "Zoom to width". You might get whole pixel steps, but not 1 pixel steps.

To get 1 pixel steps, you need to zoom in to about 100% or more. If you use a zoom level smaller than 1:1 pixel size, you cannot achive 1 pixel steps by mouse.

 

[NotMyFault]

I'm a bit annpoyed by all the comments of my forum heros who do not want to recognise the issue and provide lots of disfunctional workarounds.

1.  you cannot exactly control the dimension of crop area in develop persona (no numerical feedback of crop size)
2. you cannot enter the dimension of crop area in source as numerical input
3. The dimensions for "resample" will not help at all to get that exact dimensions in the source layer.
4. You cannot use mouse for 1 step movements unless zommed into 100%. Zoomed in at 100% is not suitable for images larger than your screen resolution, if you want to find a suitable crop region.

To get an exact 6K x 4K crop, without re-sampling, you must

• Be in photo persona
• Scroll to 100% to allow 1 step mouse movements
• Have the correct crop mode active (custom ratio 3:2)
• Zoom to 100% or 200%
• click and drag one corner by mouse
• Observe the "Crop x y" indication intil it fits
• Zoom out to "fit to width" and move the crop area, to avoid cropping outside of layer edges. Want to center / align the crop area to layer adges? not available, train your hand / eye coordination.
• Check all 4 corners: toggle multiple times between zoom levels, move tool (yes, i press space)
• Hit Apply.

Sorry, these process is far to much effort for something other RAW dev apps to automatically every time.

Beeing a big fan of the X-Form panel (unavailable for crop), did i mention that i hate using mouse for exact pixel dimension tasks?

2021-03-15_17-18-37.mkv

[MEB]

Hi @NotMyFault,
There's indeed a few issues/limitations in Develop/Photo Persona's Crop Tool which i will have to take  look/log.
The easiest way to get what you want is to use the Unconstrained mode, enter 6000x4000 in the input fields on top (to set the size of the frame), adjust the crop frame position (move only don't use the handles otherwise you change crop frame's dimensions) then double-click inside it to perform the crop. The resulting image will have 6000x4000px - it's a direct crop of the original pixels (no resampling is performed).

It would be nice if we could use the cursor keys to also move the crop frame - i will log this as an improvement. The Resample function  has some missing controls (on Windows) and it's broken (I'm logging this as well).

[NotMyFault]

For comparison, this is how Canon DPP handles RAW files.

It will always show them as exactly 6K x 4K, during every single workflow step.

The "extra" 24 + 20 pixel are just a kind of buffer for lens correction, which automatically gets discarded for the benefit of a clean 3:2 6k x 4K image.

 

2021-03-15_17-58-00.mkv

[NotMyFault]

2 minutes ago, MEB said:

Hi @NotMyFault,
There's indeed a few issues/limitations in Develop Persona which i will have to take  look/log.
The easiest way to get what you want is to use the Unconstrained mode, enter 6000x4000 in the input fields on top (to set the size of the frame), adjust the crop frame position (move only don't use the handles otherwise you change crop frame's dimensions) then double-click inside it to perform the crop. The resulting image will have 6000x4000px and no resampling is performed.

Thank you, this is the first valuable feedback in this matter and a suitable workaround. It seems to center the crop area, what is perfect.

Thank you again.

 

[walt.farrell]

3 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

 

I wonder if you tried this by youself?

In Develop Persona, by default you do not get any feedback about the exact pixel dimensions while cropping.

Even in case you activate "info" panel, you won't get any exact size of crop area.

Yes, I have. And as MEB mentioned, you can simply specify the size you want in the boxes on the Context Toolbar. That's also where you get your feedback about the actual size if you're dragging the crop handles.

 

[NotMyFault]

1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

Yes, I have. And as MEB mentioned, you can simply specify the size you want in the boxes on the Context Toolbar. That's also where you get your feedback about the actual size if you're dragging the crop handles.

 

Only MEB gave the crutial piece of information which was absent in your comment: "unconstraint" mode, which is again counter-intuitive as i wanted a defined ratio. Why Photo does not allow to enter numeric input for the sice of the cropo area in case of "custom ratio", nobody knows. These many minor UI inconsistencies sum up and drive user frustation.

 

So technically you were right, that it is possible, but "unconstraint" was the only option i didn't try after 3 failed options.

[Alfred]

5 minutes ago, NotMyFault said:

Why Photo does not allow to enter numeric input for the sice of the cropo area in case of "custom ratio", nobody knows.

Of course Photo allows (indeed, has to allow!) numeric input for the ‘Custom Ratio’ option, otherwise it wouldn’t be ‘custom’. However, because it’s a ratio, the result isn’t the same as if you were entering absolute dimensions.

[NotMyFault]

1 hour ago, Alfred said:

Of course Photo allows (indeed, has to allow!) numeric input for the ‘Custom Ratio’ option, otherwise it wouldn’t be ‘custom’. However, because it’s a ratio, the result isn’t the same as if you were entering absolute dimensions.

Well, Photo uses the input only to calulate the aspect ratio (and initial crop dimensions), but does not provide a way to specify the dimensions of the crop area (other than mouse)

These are different things, and Photo mixes them in a bad way.

 

In Canon DPP i can specify:

1. Aspect ratio (witch will be enforced for later input, see no. 2)
2. absolut dimensions, position and angle of crop area (similar to transform panel for layers and objects)
3. The crop will always be a 1:1 (sorce and dest are identical size). If you want to resize(reample), you must wait until export. No resize before export possible. This is ok for me, as i can resize easily later.
4. If you rotate (similar to straighten), DDP will always show the maximzum possible opaque crop area (crop to opaque).
5. You can always overwrite any value (position, dimension, rotation, and even aspect ration), and DPP will adjust the other parameters in a reasonable way.

In Affinity Photo you have a inconsistent mixture of crop and resize:

1. case "original ratio": only mouse avalable to enter position, size, rotation of crop area.
   MISSING:
   (1) option to define position & size of source crop area
   (2) enforcment of ascpect ratio for dimesnions of crop area (if you edit x, y will be changed automatically)
   (3) crop to opaque (maximizing dimensions based on angle & aspect ratio)
2. case "custom ratio": you can enter x and y, which is used for aspect ratio only. only mouse avalable to enter position, size, rotation of crop area.
   MISSING:
   (1) option to define position & size of source crop area independent
   (2) enforcment of ascpect ratio for dimesnions of crop area (if you edit x, y will be changed automatically)
   (3) crop to opaque (maximizing dimensions based on angle & aspect ratio)
3. case "resample": you can enter x and y, which is used for aspect ratio, and as initial dimension of crop area.
   You can then move to crop range, or modify the size via mouse only.
   The numeric values for current crop area stay static, nailed on initial values (BUG).
   You can edit "resample" dimensions (destination), this will reset the source crop dimensions.
   MISSING:
   (1) option to define position & size of source crop area independent from destination resample size.
   (2) x and y should be coupled / de-coupled to chosen aspect ratio.
   (3) Resulting aspect ratio (for source area) should be displayed (and editable).
4. case "unconstrained": you can define the source (and destination, coupled 1:1) crop dimensions numerically.  Initial state: site of layer.
   MISSING:
   (1) Option to specify a aspect ratio which will be enforced when editing dimensions. (independent from no. 2)
   (2) option to edit position, of crop area in numeric form

[walt.farrell]

21 minutes ago, NotMyFault said:

Well, Photo uses the input only to calulate the aspect ratio (and initial crop dimensions), but does not provide a way to specify the dimensions of the crop area (other than mouse)

Not true.

• In Unconstrained crop mode, the crop dimensions you type into the boxes on the Context Toolbar are the dimensions of the crop area. You then adjust the crop by moving the crop box.
• In Custom Ratio crop mode, the numbers you type in are taken as a ratio, and the resultng crop frame is the largest one of that ratio that will fit within the image. So, either 6 x 4 or 6000 x 4000 will give you the same result, and it will be the largest 6 x 4 crop box that is possible. You can make the box larger or smaller by dragging a corner, and it will remain that ratio. But you cannot specify the exact size.
• Resample mode does not seem applicable to what you're doing, as you dont want to resample, so I'll ignore that one. I'll also ignore Original Ratio.

34 minutes ago, NotMyFault said:

case "custom ratio": you can enter x and y, which is used for aspect ratio only. only mouse avalable to enter position, size, rotation of crop area.
MISSING:
(1) option to define position & size of source crop area independent
(2) enforcment of ascpect ratio for dimesnions of crop area (if you edit x, y will be changed automatically)

Of course if you edit x/y it changes the aspect ratio. That's what x and y are defining in this mode.

You further refine the size using the mouse, and the aspect ratio is enforced while you do that.

For the rest you're right, some things are missing.