Counting mechanism

[ophuzii]

Are you thinking in incorporating any time soon a counting mechanic to count characters, words and lines, and a feature to see if the lines have too much space like in indesign

[GarryP]

Welcome to the forums @ophuzii

Why would you need to count characters, words or lines of text in Publisher?

[Pšenda]

https://www.google.com/search?q=count+characters%2C+words+and+lines+site%3Aforum.affinity.serif.com

[loukash]

3 hours ago, GarryP said:

Why would you need to count characters, words or lines of text in Publisher?

C'mon, that's mean…

14 hours ago, ophuzii said:

a counting mechanic to count characters, words and lines

Haven't needed it yet, but that's seriously a glaring omission.
Especially since e.g. on Mac, Affinity doesn't seem to support the global MacOS Services which would easily solve the issue by running e.g. WordService from Devon Technologies.

Workaround on Mac:

1. get Keyboard Maestro, you won't regret it, ever!
2. create a global (so that you can use it in any other app, too) macro, approximately like this:
   
3. copy text to clipboard
4. run macro by selecting it from the KM status menu or by your custom keyboard shortcut

It's just a "quick hack". For some reason, Line Count always returns 1 regardless from which app the text was copied. So the macro may need some refinement in that regard.

[GarryP]

Why is not having a character/word/line count “seriously a glaring omission”?
My original question still stands, unless someone can explain why it might be necessary.

[loukash]

3 minutes ago, GarryP said:

why it might be necessary

1. I create a layout draft using filler text.
2. Waiting for the text guy to deliver his final text for me to fill in.
3. He asks how many characters I want him to write.
4. I want to count my filler text characters only to find out that this decades old standard page layout functionality is non-existent in Publisher.

Voilà.

[GarryP]

Okay, thanks for the info’.
That seems like a good reason to me for having character and words counts.
So what about line counts?
Unless you and the contributor are using the same font, font size and frame/page width (also assuming no text wrap around other layers) then a line count is fairly useless isn’t it? Or is it not?

[loukash]

1 minute ago, GarryP said:

So what about line counts?

Statistics-while-we're-at-it-anyway.
Some folks like this kinda weird stuff, you know.
And sometimes I can only tell you why I need it when I need it.

Look, if you don't have any use for it, that's okay. For example, I, for one, haven't had any use for the Index feature in the past 30 years of doing DTP either, yet. But I understand that many people use it. So for me the Index panel has always been just sitting there, unused. "It doesn't eat any hay", as a very old Swiss German saying goes. (Äs frisst ke Heu)

[GarryP]

I understand that a lot of these things are not for everyone but I only ask these sort of silly questions so that (among other things):
1. I can see if I’m missing out on something that could could be useful to me;
2. A discussion could come up with an idea of how it could work well (not just the same as another existing application);
3. We can have an idea of whether its really necessary for the developers to put the time and effort into something that’s only going to be useful to a handful of people.
Sometimes the stupid questions have interesting answers.

[loukash]

1 hour ago, GarryP said:

Sometimes the stupid questions have interesting answers.

Touché!

[AlanPickup]

Because I do a lot of the editing on things I produce I like to be aware of word count / character. Soemtimes this is specified by funders when we are reporting on the benefits gained from the funding. Serif must have deemed it worthy of inclusion in Page Plus becuase it had not only word / character count but a text editor modedule word plus. which I used instead of using ms word, as it is sometimes easy to draft what you want to say without worry about other controls.

 

[GarryP]

@AlanPickup I’m curious as to this specification of a character/word count. Are they specifying a minimum count or a maximum count? And do you know why they are doing so?

@loukash Is the scenario you stated above the only time you would need a character/word count? Specifically, would you personally only need this functionality while using filler text?

I’m also wondering where the best place could be for the software to display the count.
For instance, might it be best displayed in the status bar, or overlaid onto the text frame somehow, or shown in a ‘little box’ at the end of a text frame, or somewhere else?

Also, what about text which spans multiple text frames?
Would the count need to be the total(s) only or would each frame need its own count?
The answer to that might have knock-on effects to the answers to my previous question.

I’m not trying to be awkward by asking all these questions; I’m just trying to get an idea of what might actually be needed.

[loukash]

2 hours ago, GarryP said:

Is the scenario you stated above the only time you would need a character/word count? Specifically, would you personally only need this functionality while using filler text?

How can I possibly know what the future will bring? Do you? Come on.
I gave you an example off the top of my head how I've been using text counter in the past, say, 25 years in real life projects.

~~~

Meanwhile, I've looked up an ancient but still working installation of XPress 4 (!) that I was using some 20 years ago. XPress 4 didn't have a text counter built in, but I was using the 3rd party XTension "Word Counter XT" by Markzware that's been around since 1993! What a sophisticated and flexible beast at counting! Take that, InDesign CS5.5! (Don't know how InDesign CC counts text these days though.)

2 hours ago, GarryP said:

I’m also wondering where the best place could be for the software to display the count.

ID CS5.5 uses the Info palette contextually:

I'd be fine with that for a start.

What? Did I just hear someone saying that Publisher – and Designer, for that matter – doesn't have an Info panel? Like, you know, the Info panel in Photo?
Well, then it's about time they finally add it!

3 hours ago, GarryP said:

Also, what about text which spans multiple text frames? […]

Well, that's exactly what was so brilliant about Markzware's Word Counter XT: they gave you display options to choose from.

Which reminds me…

Hey, I've got this QuarkXPress 2015 that was a free (!) giveaway by heise.de a few years ago, sleeping here on my El Capitan partition, widely unused.
Let's see if they have a built-in counter.
There it is, Utilities menu > Word And Character Count:

A modal window? How pathetic…
Having "Unique word count" is nice for writers, but not really necessary in a layout app.
Personally, I don't care about full-width characters either as I don't do Japanese & co.
But still better than nothing at all.

[loukash]

13 minutes ago, loukash said:

3rd party XTension "Word Counter XT" by Markzware

Here the archived original download page with description:
web.archive.org/web/20021216221357/markzware.com/freebies/Quark_3.3x_4.x/Word_Counter_XT.html

Quote

WORD COUNTER

Installation: Simply copy the WordCounter XT to your Quark XTensions folder and relaunch Quark.

Use: WordCounter XT counts the characters, words and lines in the current QuarkXPress document. The palette can be shown or hidden using the Utilities menu.

The WordCounter palette offers a pop-up menu allowing you to choose several ways in which to obtain a count. You can choose the currently Selected Text Only, or the Whole Text Box, or count through the Text Box chains on the current Page or Spread or throughout the entire Document. Another way to count the text is to choose ALL text on the page, spread or the entire Document.

Click the Calculate button for the totals to be shown. The Auto-Calculate checkbox is provided to show a continuous count as changes are being made, although it is more time consuming.

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by loukash

[Jowday]

On 1/23/2021 at 11:19 PM, ophuzii said:

Are you thinking in incorporating any time soon a counting mechanic to count characters, words and lines, and a feature to see if the lines have too much space like in indesign

I hope this will be included in a forthcoming story editor / story persona in Publisher. Used in many real life scenarios out there in the professional world.

[AlanPickup]

4 hours ago, GarryP said:

@AlanPickup I’m curious as to this specification of a character/word count. Are they specifying a minimum count or a maximum count? And do you know why they are doing so?

@loukash Is the scenario you stated above the only time you would need a character/word count? Specifically, would you personally only need this functionality while using filler text?

I’m also wondering where the best place could be for the software to display the count.
For instance, might it be best displayed in the status bar, or overlaid onto the text frame somehow, or shown in a ‘little box’ at the end of a text frame, or somewhere else?

Also, what about text which spans multiple text frames?
Would the count need to be the total(s) only or would each frame need its own count?
The answer to that might have knock-on effects to the answers to my previous question.

I’m not trying to be awkward by asking all these questions; I’m just trying to get an idea of what might actually be needed.

Hi Gary

They specify maximum word count, which is common practice in tenders in the public and funding field. Prior to retirement I prepared tenders and sent reports to the NHS and mximum word count was often specified. It is to help them get to the essence of the bid or benefits of the work. If you are limited you are going to go for the most importan elements and not waffle on.

[GarryP]

AlanPickup: Thanks for the extra info’. I was just curious but that makes sense.

loukash: The reason I asked is to help me to find out what functionality you have needed in the past, rather than what functionality is available elsewhere.

I’m not particularly interested in what’s available elsewhere, I’m more interested in what people really need from the functionality.
Other software could have a ‘count the number of characters that have descenders’ or ‘count the number of double characters’ but that doesn’t tell me whether people actually use them or not.

If we can find out what people actually need and in which circumstances then we can give Serif a better idea of what people might want from such functionality if implemented.
If we just say “This other software does it so Publisher should do it” it’s not much of a good argument and may get ignored.
On the other hand, if we can say “Everyone who creates this sort of document absolutely needs character/word counting because of this very specific reason and it would be most beneficial to them if it was available in this way” then Serif might more take notice of the request above all of the other “I want this so I should have it” requests/demands.

I don’t use character/word counts myself so I have no stake in this either way but if we can prove to Serif that is it actually needed, rather than just asking for it, then they might bump it up the priority list. Otherwise it’s just another request amongst thousands.

[jmwellborn]

2 hours ago, AlanPickup said:. If you are limited you are going to go for the most importan elements and not waffle on.

“Who, what, when, where, and why in 500 words or less”.  Word counts are very useful when writing manuscripts, and line counts also, when considering the final page count of a proposed document (x-number of lines per page).  Writing directly in Publisher rather than importing from somewhere else is already really easy.  The counts would be very nice as well.🤔

[v_kyr]

On 1/25/2021 at 1:59 PM, loukash said:

Hey, I've got this QuarkXPress 2015 that was a free (!) giveaway by heise.de a few years ago, sleeping here on my El Capitan partition, widely unused.
Let's see if they have a built-in counter.

Haha (die Welt ist klein) pretty much the same here, aka once fetched as a "giveaway by heise.de ... and sleeping here too on an El Capitan partition"!

[loukash]

1 hour ago, v_kyr said:

pretty much the same here

It will eventually serve its purpose for inspecting old QXP layouts from the 1990s while figuring out the best method to convert them into anything useful for the 2020s. I just wasn't bored enough to begin with it yet…

[v_kyr]

10 hours ago, loukash said:

...I just wasn't bored enough to begin with it yet

Same here, probably also depends on what sort of publications one would use it then for. - Since I do more dev related technical writing, I'm more used to DTP tools like Framemaker here, even one might can do similar things (in the one or other way) with QXP too here, I never found the time to dive deeper into that software.

[loukash]

1 hour ago, v_kyr said:

probably also depends on what sort of publications one would use it then for

Oh, that would be just for my own archives. I was laying out lots of flyers (being also musician, DJ, live sound engineer etc.) which I would then often just print on an b/w LaserWriter that I had access to. While I usually kept a few archive copies of each print, some may have been lost while others are now in a bad shape. And some of them I like so much that eventually I'd like to have them restored in their full glory for my upcoming "lifetime resume". (Only 11 years to go until officially retired, ha!)

Anyway…

Back on topic:
Regarding my earlier Keyboard Maestro macro workaround, I have a few ideas how to make it work quite seamlessly within Affinity, at least for text selections. Will post back when ready.

[thomaso]

On 1/25/2021 at 2:31 PM, Jowday said:

I hope this will be included in a forthcoming story editor / story persona in Publisher.

Good point, +1

Just in case (@garry;): it enables one to edit text with focus on content, hyphenation etc – regardless of design (font face, size, layout, frames, text-flow and/or even pages) … but rather in a simple text appearance with all text in same (customisable) type and size. (compare: a code editor app or teletext). A Story Editor window allows faster reading + editing without the need to navigate through the layout via mouse + zooming in/out but via scrolling + arrow keys only.

[Leaving-Adobe]

Still a needed feature. In this thread BTW people were already A YEAR before explaing, why word and acharacter count is so crucial:

 

[jots]

Trying to get this topic alive again...

I need to give a author information on word / character count for his paragraph. I filled it with sample text (Fülltext in German) but no way to count info. Then I thought I would use another program to fill the gap, copy-paste the text - "<FillerText>" insead of any text. Kidding me? No way to find out!
I would need to write my own text to find out...

Please implement this functionality!

Thanks a lot