Text style workflow in Publisher

[AllAppsUser]

Hi

Two questions:

1) Setting up a document wide default style, workflow...

BTW: I'm really confident with text styles. Yet I'm bumping up against the logic in Affinity Publisher.

My usual workflow in InDesign:

1. Create new document
2. Style a piece of text to give me font style, size and leading (line spacing)
3. In paragraph styles panel - "[Basic Paragraph]" is highlighted by default. Right-click > "Redefine Basic Paragraph".

Job done -  start laying-out the document and creating styles. In those 3 moves, I've set up a file with a default *document* text style.

(InDesign's "[Basic paragraph]" is not delete-able by accident, that's what the  square brackets indicate so it's a safe place to set these 'document defaults').

Can anyone give me a similar numbered step-by-step list for how I achieve the same in Publisher, please?

-----------

2) No Style, keh?!

Let's be really clear - > the so-called "No style" HAS a style. It's Arial 12pt Regular (12.4pt). That's ....a style...

What is "No style" that's in Arial Regular 12pt style for, please? What's it's purpose, why is it there - what is it for?

[Petar Petrenko]

Paragraph [No Style] is used to reset selected paragraphs to the default values within [No Style].

Character [No Style] is used to reset selected words settings to the default values within [No Style].

[Pšenda]

https://affinity.help/publisher/en-US.lproj/pages/Text/textStyles_remove.html

[Old Bruce]

2 hours ago, ProDesigner said:

Can anyone give me a similar numbered step-by-step list for how I achieve the same in Publisher, please?

 

What you may want to do is what I have done.

I deleted all the text styles from a new publisher document and set up some text as you described.

Then with the text caret in the paragraph, or the whole thing selected, I go to Edit > Defaults > Synchronize from Selection and then immediately go to Edit > Defaults > Save. This results with every new document giving me that set of font leading etc for [No Style]

You can go further and set up some default styles (I have a Base Group Style and a Basic Paragraph Style (based on Base group) plus Italic and Bold Character Styles (based on [No Style]) as my defaults for text in new Documents.

Just do the (with a text frame selected) Edit > Defaults > S... things twice and you should be good to go.

Note that this will not apply to any Publisher Template Documents you set up, those will use the Paragraph Styles and the Character Styles you have set up and saved with it, only the [no style] will be like your hand-rolled defaults.

[AllAppsUser]

Hello Everyone

Apologies for not responding sooner. Had to crack-on.. deadlines and all.

@Petar Petrenko, thank you. I get that... the label "No style" is the issue here. The label "Reset Style" would describe what you've said... not "No Style". Better labels would be "Manual Style", "Base Style", "Unset Styles".  I'm fully aware it's a challenge to label these things in a meaningful way and that I'm probably coming across as pedantic. However... the one thing (in my experience) that newbies really struggle with - and some never 'get it' fully - is: styles. So if it's stumped me, they've no chance. (Just search on text styles in here... you'll see how utterly lost people are, and how often the responses are also a bit confused - I'm not saying changing the label will cure it, but it might help).

@Pšanda - Interesting the documentation shows "[No Style]" (with square brackets), which is a good way to indecate it is different to all other styles.... yet the app (I have) does not have the square brackets so it doesn't communicate its special status

Thank you also @Old Bruce, really clear. You put a light on.

- - - - -

Now been able to give this thing some time after tearing my hair out (what little I have still), and vowing there was no way I was going to recommend this thing to the professional designers I know.

Setting a Default "No Style" = WORKS   ----- EDIT --->>> Just created a new document and "no style" is back to what it was orignally.

1. No text box needed, no text needed
2. Set the font, size, leading, paragraph-after, alignment etc.. anything in the tool bar or via menus.
3. Use Edit > Defaults > Save

This worked.

Note: if you need to use a sample text to help you make styling decisions for something that's not a style, then knock youself out. I suspect you'll need the extra step as listed by @Old Bruce above, though I've not tested that.

The reason I'm bothering  to change No Style is because I have a Base Style I use all the time (ie, leading, and Helvetica is the most used font here). In InDesign it also means there are a number of settings you can then forget about (ie: keeps and hyphenation settings) because they then flow through into all the styles you subsequently make regardless of what style the new ones are 'based on'. I'm into the nuances of creating styles here of course. Basically: it saves time.

Creating a Default set of styles = DOES NOT WORK? (for me)

Using Edit > Defaults > Save DOES NOT WORK.

I've tried:

• Deleting the existing styles
• Repurposing the existing styles, including a name change
• Styling the text in a text box > create paragraph style
• Creating a style from the styles panel with no text on screen
• Edit > Defaults > Save
• Edit > Defaults > Save from selection - followed by - Edit > Defaults > Save
• Checking 'new' is not loading a template - it's not (I even deleted the template in there)
• There are no 'presets' either in the 'new' dialogue (have yet to fathom what those are in truth).

Nothing works. Can anyone shed light on this??? Thank you.

It should be noted, I've managed to do it at some point in my previous struggles because the styles in there are one's I've tailored. Can't remember what I did that explains how they got there. Could it be something to do with them being corrupted?

For now I've created a template to try to get around this.

------------

Feel like I'm fighting this app at the moment, not good.

 

[Kevin B]

On 1/16/2021 at 1:10 PM, ProDesigner said:

and some never 'get it' fully - is: styles. So if it's stumped me, they've no chance. (Just search on text styles in here... you'll see how utterly lost people are, and how often the responses are also a bit confused

Hello ProDesigner,

Hey, you must have read my post, "Confused by Styles" -- I'm in the same boat as a few others it looks like.

Yes, having a handy default set of preferred styles would be handy, and one that is available in new documents, but seems that's not possible. I imported a Word docx page full of examples of the included styles from the Normal template, but that was messy. I might try again to see if I can create a Publisher default by copying their attributes, but they're very different animals and not sure if it's really practical.

Seems like Publisher should have two styles modes, an Advanced (the setup now) and a Simple mode more like Word or anything quick and clear to grasp. 

Anyway, I'll keep monitoring here for any new tricks for a low-level user like me.

Regards, Kevin 

[AllAppsUser]

On 1/23/2021 at 6:45 PM, Kevin B said:

Hey, you must have read my post, "Confused by Styles" -- I'm in the same boat as a few others it looks like.

Yeah, basically I've concluded Styles - in so far as setting up default Styles - is ..... broken.

Or at least it is in mine. Publisher is the last app Serif have put out here, after Photo and Designer, so it's least mature.

Fingers crossed they sort this, because it's reason enough on its own for designers to avoid-avoid.

It also suggests "There may be trouble ahead 🎶 " if right at the beginning of setting up something you hit this nonsense. Does not instill confidence.

I actually wonder if anyone at Serif actually understands styles, or they just think they do. I mean, creating a set of default styles before laying-out your multi-page brochure/catalogue/magazine is the first fundamental to-do. It underpins all the hours of designing you do after.... 🤔😀

(Am pondering if I can spend the time putting together a bug report. Like I've nothing else to do...)

[Hadriscus]

Please do, it will help many people

[loukash]

1 hour ago, ProDesigner said:

Styles - in so far as setting up default Styles - is ..... broken.

I wouldn't say it's "broken", but the logic of how it works is, er, special.
Especially if you're comming from InDesign. Been there for the past 18 years, too…

So, after intensively toying with it for the past few weeks, I think I've finally figured it out.

The key to [No Style] (and many other app-wide settings) is Edit menu > Defaults > Save.
These defaults are contextual, depending on which tool is active. I.e. you can have different defaults for Frame Text Tool and Artistic Text Tool. And there are also defaults for strokes, text frames, image frames, you name it.

In other words, if you despise Arial as much as I do (don't let me even start on that!), you can override it by setting up your favorite default style using the Character and Paragraph panels, then save as default for each text tool.
I've been opting for Menlo 10 pt as the default font – also in Adobe CS – ever since Apple added it to the system fonts.

To reset your currently active style back to your previously saved default style, simply click the Revert Defaults button in the toolbar. This will always bring me back to my Menlo 10 pt now.

[AllAppsUser]

2 hours ago, loukash said:

These defaults are contextual, depending on which tool is active.

OK... really clear. I had the Text Frame tool selected when I did the below.

- - - - - - - - -

Restyled some '[No Style] text in text frame to "Helvetica" - Edit > Defaults > Save

❌ Didn't work.

Tried Edit > Defaults > Sync With Selected - then - Edit > Defaults > Save (as offered by @Old Bruce originally).

✔️Worked ...... Hum, had this before.

Quit Publisher

Rebooted... completely new document.. got "Helvetica" ✔️.... Blimey!

(  Don't know why Edit > Defaults > Save clearly works for some. Two different stories here. Inconsistency. What explains that? )

- - - - - - - - -

Thing is: the double menu action (Edit > Defaults > Sync With Selected - then - Edit > Defaults > Save) has appeared to work before, and then it reverted.

Been working with an imported PDF file tonight, and observed something that - appeared - to have happened with the default No Style.

Can an imported file mess with the default No Style?

If yes, it might explain my previous "It's worked! Uh-oh, no it hasn't." experience.

 

 

 

[loukash]

2 minutes ago, ProDesigner said:

Restyled some '[No Style] text in text frame to "Helvetica" - Edit > Defaults > Save

❌ Didn't work.

Yeah, I think that's what didn't work for me either, even though I thought that would be the logical thing to do.

What I eventually did was to adjust everything without having any object selected. Then Edit > Defaults > Save while double-checking each tool/panel until I got it all saved.

[AllAppsUser]

10 hours ago, loukash said:

.... I think that's what didn't work for me either ....

You think... you're sounding as stumped with this as I am.

If mine doesn't revert, and if imported files explain why it worked, then undid itself - then I'm on to it now, and sorted. At least with the No Style default..

Can banish Arial again (with you totally on that @loukash).

[loukash]

2 minutes ago, ProDesigner said:

you're sounding as stumped with this as I am

Hehe, I'm used to it, eventually making my way around any apps' quirks. Sometimes it takes time, but I'm a patient nitpicker.

13 minutes ago, ProDesigner said:

Can banish Arial again

Interestingly, just recently I recalled that for certain usage on screen, Arial at small sizes is still way readable than Helvetica. In particular, I was programming a FileMaker database where I needed small 9 pt labels for fields, and Helvetica just didn't cut it. Arial did. That's not unexpected though, because originally it was designed with onscreen usage in mind. On CRTs monitors @72 ppi it used to look great and highly readable at small sizes, unlike Helvetica. It's just the printed typeface that is so ugly.

[Old Bruce]

Arghh!

This is making me crazy too. I think there may be something with importing/opening a document from another machine which is messing things up for me. I shall have to pay more attention to my use of Template documents as well.

[huge sigh of resignation emoticon] [confuzzeled emoticon]

[AllAppsUser]

9 hours ago, loukash said:

... for certain usage on screen, Arial at small sizes is still way readable than Helvetica....

Agreed. Everything has its moment, even Arial. Likewise, nothing is successful everywhere, even Helvetica. I find most clients default to Helvetica for body text. Might just be the kind of clients I work for, of course.

[AllAppsUser]

4 hours ago, Old Bruce said:

 I think there may be something with importing/opening a document from another machine which is messing things up for me.

Yep, I'm confident there's something in Affinity's behaviour that doesn't seem logical. Whether it's Serif-logic, or unexpected (Bug, design fault), I have no idea. I'll press on. I'll start another thread as we've ended up getting into something I think deserves its own thread. I'll link to it here if I do so you get the heads up on it in case you're interested. If anyone else wishes to do that, feel free.

Got stuff to crack on with, deadlines and all... so I might a while.

Thanks everyone for your input. Really good.

[kevinslimp]

The styles are driving me crazy, too. They worked, then they stopped. They would take on the font and bold/ital/reg, but the size stayed whatever the size of the original text.

Hmmm. Gotta teach a large group of InDesign folks on Thursday who plan to make the switch to Affinity in their workflow. This one might be the most discouraging problem I've run into since the PDF problem was fixed.

If anyone has any idea how to create paragraph styles that actually work all the time, please let me know. Thanks.

[AllAppsUser]

You understand and register the little plus sign that appears against the style (in the same way it does with InDesign), I take it @kevinslimp?

I know changing app environment can disorientate you, so for a time you forget things you know, if you follow -> I did!! There's that much that's new to learn.

 

Edit for anyone trying to follow this thread: Above the question you'll see I say "Thanks everyone" which closed off my initial question as far as I was concerned. From this point, the discussion becomes about others and different questions. I found myself changing from 'asker' to 'answerer'.

Nothing wrong, just confusing.

The nature of forums, that's all.

[kevinslimp]

Thanks, that was helpful to look through those options.

I was on the ground floor of InDesign (back before it came on the market in '99 was still called "k2"), and I usually say, "Okay, how would I do it in InDesign?"

I tried Option-Clicking the paragraph style in Publisher, with no luck - but it does override the text and apply the font if I tell it to to apply paragraph style and ignore character styles. The interesting/strange thing to me is that there is no character style applied to the text in the first place. I began with no styles, created a few paragraph styles, applied them and they worked - then later, I noticed the text had changed back to the default "no style" format. If I chose a paragraph style, it would take on the bold/ital/etc., but keep the size at 12 pt.

I appreciate you guys and you're doing good work. Publisher has been easy to learn - and I'm hoping to work out the "quirks" in the app so magazines and newspapers (there are still 12,000 newspapers in the U.S.) can begin using it. Back in 93-94, I worked with friends at Adobe and others to create what's now the PDF printing workflow. Back then, no one thought it would ever work, but I knew we were so close, and eventually (it took about a year), got all the bugs worked out. The CEO, Bruce Chitzen, wrote me and thanked me for "probably saving the company." I see real potential for Publisher in the U.S. publishing industry...now just trying to get the little things figured out. I'm already getting publications all over the country asking me to spend a few days and convert their workflow.

Now, Photo is a different story. lol. One at a time...

[kevinslimp]

Something confusing about styles. If I have character styles created (in the style panel/palette/window), and paragraph styles, Publisher seems to - by default - combine the the default character style and default paragraph style together - it messes up the fonts, size, etc. The only way I found to make this stop was to delete all the character styles. Anybody else deal with this and find a fix? Thanks.

[AllAppsUser]

I've always worked with Paragraph Styles only. (I choose font style and size, and that sits in the Paragraph style definition). I ignore Character styles.

This is because I've always understood Character styles are something separate, with a narrower scope. They have little to no relation to Paragraph styles in truth (though you can link one within the other just to confuse yourself).

Put simply: Paragraph styles apply to whole paragraphs. Character styles apply to little random and adhoc strings of characters.

Example: So a character style might be Bold Red. And the "Bold Red" Character Style could occur within text of any Paragraph style. Character Styles are like a local over-ride for a word or phrase.

Character Styles are used for emphasis essentially. Generally, I've found the need for Character Styles is extremely rare, because I only work with imported text. Nowadays export/import maintains bold and itallic by default (wasn't always the case in the early days). So emphasis has already been assigned at source., and it's rarely changed - and never wholesale. Hence I don't really use Character Styles.

This is my understanding of text Styles. Others might have a different view.

So... my own answer to your question above , @kevinslimp, is: I've never encountered the issue, sorry. However.....

Is the clue in how you're trying to use them?

[Petar Petrenko]

7 minutes ago, ProDesigner said:

Put simply: Paragraph styles apply to whole paragraphs...

...but reset local character formatings (bold, italic...). That is why you need character styles.

[AllAppsUser]

26 minutes ago, Petar Petrenko said:

...but reset local character formatings (bold, italic...). That is why you need character styles.

Not always... that's what the little plus sign "+" is that appears next to the Paragraph Style, yeah?

When first importing and laying-out text I assign the Paragraph Style, noting if there's a plus sign. I investigate this to see if it's just some bold or itallic words that have prompted it, or some other reason for it. Then, if it's just a bolded word within the paragraph I'll leave it with the plus sign (no reset of characters), or I reapply the Paragraph Style, then re-bold the text (and the plus sign reappears. I leave it in place then).

If the Paragraph style is changed by the client, I can amend it knowing it changes everything, leaving bold and itallic in place anyway.

There's no right or wrong way to work here of course. I just find spending time setting up and applying Character Styles doesn't feel like it pays off in the work I do. I could be wrong and missing something of course.

A Character Style is still reset if the plus sign is addressed isn't it? I can't remember, tbh, it's that long since I've bothered with them. I thought Character style (local styling) took priority, hence the plus sign.

[kevinslimp]

19 minutes ago, ProDesigner said:

I've always worked with Paragraph Styles only. (I choose font style and size, and that sits in the Paragraph style definition). I ignore Character styles.

This is because I've always understood Character styles are something separate, with a narrower scope. They have little to no relation to Paragraph styles in truth (though you can link one within the other just to confuse yourself).

Put simply: Paragraph styles apply to whole paragraphs. Character styles apply to little random and adhoc strings of characters.

Example: So a character style might be Bold Red. And the "Bold Red" Character Style could occur within text of any Paragraph style. Character Styles are like a local over-ride for a word or phrase.

Character Styles are used for emphasis essentially. Generally, I've found the need for Character Styles is extremely rare, because I only work with imported text. Nowadays export/import maintains bold and itallic by default (wasn't always the case in the early days). So emphasis has already been assigned at source., and it's rarely changed - and never wholesale. Hence I don't really use Character Styles.

This is my understanding of text Styles. Others might have a different view.

So... my own answer to your question above , @kevinslimp, is: I've never encountered the issue, sorry. However.....

Is the clue in how you're trying to use them?

In the publishing world, we use characters styles and paragraph styles a lot. Both are important. What's strange about Publisher is that, if there's a character style in the palette, it automatically sets it as a "default" style, meaning it is somehow combined with the paragraph style selected. This can only be stopped by clicking on the menu and telling it to ignore the character style ... which negates the advantage of having character styles altogether.

[AllAppsUser]

11 minutes ago, kevinslimp said:

...and telling it to ignore the character style ... which negates the advantage of having character styles altogether.

While I've worked with a lot of high pagination documents, and in Newspaper and Magazine environments on occasion, I'm not sure I'd class myself as having expertise in the "publishing world". So, sadly, I don't know what the practice is and can't help you.