Simple, quick Desaturate layer function?

[zynexis]

For all that is holy, please implement a quick way to desaturate a layer! (make the layer greyscale, destructively)

It should not be necessary to muck about with adjustment layers or whatever, just a simple Edit -> Desaturate, or Layer -> Desaturate

Been (trying) to get used to Affinity's way to do things, but I still can't find the most basic features, that I'm used to use all the time (like desaturate)

..Am I missing something completely obvious here about this function or lack thereof?
Looking for help online links to post suggesting adjustment layers, HSL sliders, BW adjustments..The question is not 'is it possible to achieve', but rather 'is it quick and efficient'

Also, juggling adjustment layers (and any other layers really) is like a lesson in frustration in this app - drag drop just seem to always have them end up in places you did not intend.
Maybe that is just me, I don't seem to have this problem in other progs.

 

As I just typed this post..I went to doublecheck and try ways to desaturate..and discovered a 'quick' way to do it:

simply select the layer and move the 's' slider in the HSL Color tab..this will instantly desaturate the layer - good, that's quick!  - but, it is NOT exactly obvious!
furthermore I would not have expected the image to be completely desaturated by one touch of the S slider, it would have made sense if it would actually saturate from 0-100%, instead of just dumping all color instantly.
If it's a bug, leave it in at least it's helpful x)

edit 2:

so for some reason, this quick way to desaturate only works on layers that you drag unto the canvas - it does not work if you open a color image (background layer) or if you duplicate background layer..only by dragging an image onto the canvas, can you poke the 's' slider and the image will go greyscale instantly. Very odd, weirdly beneficial, but this is way to gimmicky, there should be a quick logical way to do this?

[David in Яuislip]

There's a standard macro for doing just that

[zynexis]

yes, i've seen the macro, and i also got some macros alongside when i bought Affinity..

as i tried to say in my post, it's not a question of 'is it possible' .. but one of speed/convenience and usability. 
I wouldn't expect every user to mess around with macros when they just need a simple function.

You could try timing how long it would take a new user to start looking at macros when all he/she wanted was to make the layer grayscale..i'm pretty sure it wouldn't be the first place to look.

just trying to push for some of those basic functions to be available in a sensible manner, there is a reason photoshop has it as a default function.
 

[walt.farrell]

5 hours ago, zynexis said:

simply select the layer and move the 's' slider in the HSL Color tab..this will instantly desaturate the layer - good, that's quick! 

I'm not sure what you're talking about there; can you provide a screenshot?

[Alfred]

5 hours ago, zynexis said:

simply select the layer and move the 's' slider in the HSL Color tab..this will instantly desaturate the layer - good, that's quick!  - but, it is NOT exactly obvious!

Why isn’t it obvious that moving the Saturation slider will change the saturation of the colours in the selected layer?

[carl123]

5 hours ago, zynexis said:

It should not be necessary to muck about with adjustment layers or whatever, just a simple Edit -> Desaturate, or Layer -> Desaturate

Try...

Layer > New Adjustment Layer > Black & White

Current shortcut is Ctrl+Alt+Shift+B but you can change it to something easier (i.e. 2 keys)

 

[zynexis]

21 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

I'm not sure what you're talking about there; can you provide a screenshot?

I recorded a video of what i did to instant desaturate layer (attached below)

14 minutes ago, Alfred said:

Why isn’t it obvious that moving the Saturation slider will change the saturation of the colours in the selected layer?

because that is not what actually happens, see the attached video (I'm ofc not talking about adjustment layer HSL slider, the instant desaturate happens when just 'touching' the sat slider in the >color< tab)

1 minute ago, carl123 said:

Try...

Layer > New Adjustment Layer > Black & White

Current shortcut is Ctrl+Alt+Shift+B but you can change it to something easier (i.e. 2 keys)

 

you missed the point, i'm not asking how to do it, there are several ways..i'm simply pointing out it's not obvious, and a basic function like desaturate in photoshop is missed.
It should be simple and not a work-around, not a macro, not an adjustment layer, not a filter, not a slider, just desaturate layer -> done.

[Alfred]

10 minutes ago, zynexis said:

I'm ofc not talking about adjustment layer HSL slider

I’m guessing that you mean ‘of course’: the abbreviation you’ve used isn’t a standard one in English. Anyway, you specifically mentioned the slider ‘in the HSL Color tab’, so there was no reason for anyone to think you were talking about an adjustment layer slider.

[zynexis]

5 minutes ago, Alfred said:

I’m guessing that you mean ‘of course’: the abbreviation you’ve used isn’t a standard one in English. Anyway, you specifically mentioned the slider ‘in the HSL Color tab’, so there was no reason for anyone to think you were talking about an adjustment layer slider.

sorry, i assumed most would be familiar with ofc on the web this day and age  i could be wrong, 'of course', no 'ofc' in the old dictionary!
(i'm not a native english speaker so i might say/use other non-standard phrasing)

I tried to show in the video that the sat slider in the Color tab does nothing to a newly opened image, or to layer copies of the background, but images dragged in will become grayscale instantly.
Since you hinted that it's obvious the sat slider desaturates the image, i thought you had to be referring to the adjustment layer one, since the sat in color tab does nothing (at least on my end)

I think it's a bug, at least some of what is happening, looking at the history it appears to 'Set Fill' on the dragged in image when clicking anything in the Color tab, so it sets a White fill, which somehow results in a grayscale image. You can get the color back by flipping the back/fore color in color tab. To me, it just appears confusing, not sure whats going on there and can't replicate that Set Fill behaviour once the layer is modified. It may have something to do with the dragged in image is not yet rasterized, so it can be affected by the fill settings apparently.

[walt.farrell]

42 minutes ago, zynexis said:

I think it's a bug, at least some of what is happening, looking at the history it appears to 'Set Fill' on the dragged in image when clicking anything in the Color tab, so it sets a White fill, which somehow results in a grayscale image.

That's just how (Image) Layers work. Unlike (Pixel) Layers, they can have a fill, which provides a transparent color overlay over the image. 

It would not work for pixel layers.

[Pšenda]

10 hours ago, zynexis said:

there are several ways

So why add more? APhoto is more focused on manipulations through the Adjustments layer, which, unlike "just desaturate layer -> done", are non-destructive. So they can be turned off or modified if needed, which I think is more appropriate. And Adjustment panel allows you to create your own preset adjustments for quick convert the image to BW.

[RNKLN]

When you want to destructively desaturate, you can use Cmd+U to bring up the HSL Adjustments layer, drag the S slider to the left and click the merge button. It's quick and applies to background layers too.

[zynexis]

16 hours ago, Pšenda said:

So why add more? APhoto is more focused on manipulations through the Adjustments layer, which, unlike "just desaturate layer -> done", are non-destructive. So they can be turned off or modified if needed, which I think is more appropriate. And Adjustment panel allows you to create your own preset adjustments for quick convert the image to BW.

because if APhoto is seeking to be able to replace Photoshop (something i bet many artists could wish for the days) it should aim to have similar efficient workflows that people use. It all comes down to what type of work you do. If you have one big photo, sure non-destructive adjustment layer is great, if you have 100 tiny cutout layers for texture work, adjustment layers are a huge bog down.

You can say, well, APhoto is just not made for that and fair enough, so be it, but then it just can't replace PS. Many texture artists really want to use it for game development, but besides the little workflow details, it also still doesn't support the basic texture plugins (intel/nvidia) so it could be the case it's out of the scope of the software.

27 minutes ago, RNKLN said:

When you want to destructively desaturate, you can use Cmd+U to bring up the HSL Adjustments layer, drag the S slider to the left and click the merge button. It's quick and applies to background layers too.

yea, i'm aware of this, it's not 'quick' tho, it's 4-6 actions: cmd+u, (cursor to slider), click/hold, drag left, (cursor to merge), click merge. I agree it's the fastest way atm (beside a macro)

If simply doing some normal photo editing where you occasionally need a grayscale image, most of the multi step solutions are fine. If you are doing intense photobash texture work, you sometimes constantly cut out little pieces of the image and turn them grayscale to blend them in/enchance specific details.

Sometimes it's the small nuances that makes an efficient workflow, but I seem to be encountering several small places where Affinity Photo just doesn't quite cut it. Half the time even Copy/Paste a selection cutout from single or multi-layer just doesn't work..it creates a new layer, but it's empty

I may have formulated the post badly, i'm not looking for adjustment layer solution, or 'how to desaturate', i'm just petitioning for a 1 action solution similar to photoshop. Thanks tho

nb: The post was also made at a point when things were getting a bit frustrating and just wishing your old workflows were possible, switching software can be tough!

[David in Яuislip]

3 minutes ago, zynexis said:

if you have 100 tiny cutout layers for texture work, adjustment layers are a huge bog down.

Indeed it would be but have you tried File\New Batch Job?
You can Add all of your files, resize if required and Apply the Black & White macro. 100 files should take a few seconds

[Pšenda]

24 minutes ago, zynexis said:

yea, i'm aware of this, it's not 'quick' tho, it's 4-6 actions: cmd+u, (cursor to slider), click/hold, drag left, (cursor to merge), click merge

But select Black and White in the Adjustment panel and click to Merge button is two actions. 

[zynexis]

5 minutes ago, David in Яuislip said:

Indeed it would be but have you tried File\New Batch Job?
You can Add all of your files, resize if required and Apply the Black & White macro. 100 files should take a few seconds

in this case batch cannot really help, it's more of a 'on the fly' thing when working on an image/texture... what happens is I cut out a small section of the whole image (multilayer cut) and paste it, desaturate, set the blending/levels and mask/erase..this process is repeated many times over, so you end up with a lot of tiny enhancement layers, which you then collapse down at some point. So it's more about the expediency of the process

[zynexis]

2 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

But select Black and White in the Adjustment panel and click to Merge button is two actions. 

this is what i'm currently doing, but it's still more than 2 actions..cause you are usually on the Layer panel, so you need to:

go Adjustments Panel, 
(scroll to BW if you used a different adjustment last)
click BW
click Default
click merge
go back to Layers panel

this is not counting the mouse movement at all

if you need to desaturate a lot/often, you will notice this..imagine if there was no ctrl+c, ctrl+v..and you had to navigate to edit menu constantly, and that is just 4-6 actions for both

[Old Bruce]

9 minutes ago, zynexis said:

if you need to desaturate a lot/often, you will notice this.

Here is a macro which allows you to do what you want with one click (after you have made your selection of the layer)

Layer to B and W.afmacro

[Pšenda]

1 hour ago, zynexis said:

go Adjustments Panel, 
(scroll to BW if you used a different adjustment last)
click BW

Why? If you are editing 100 layers, then perhaps you have the Adjustment panel open, including the open BW adjustment. So just click on the prepared preset (like Default) and Merge.

Of course, it's even better to use a shortcut, such as the default "Ctrl+Alt+Shift+B", or set it to something more handy.

 

Edit: request to Serif - please, select Merge button in Black&White dialog as default. Then all you have to do is press Enter, and the layer editing would be destructively complete.

Default button Add Preset is not practical, because before that the position of the sliders has to be adjusted anyway.

[zynexis]

13 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

Here is a macro which allows you to do what you want with one click (after you have made your selection of the layer)

thank you for the macros..how do I keybind this? 
it's a workaround, i'm still petitioning for a simple default solution.

4 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

Why? If you are editing 100 layers, then perhaps you have the Adjustment panel open, including the open BW adjustment. So just click on the prepared preset (like Default) and Merge.

Of course, it's even better to use a shortcut, such as the default "Ctrl+Alt+Shift+B", or set it to something more handy.

because i'm not editing 100 layers simultaneously (described my usecase in a previous post), but i use it intensely so it adds up to many many layers before collapsing down.

essentially  I cut out a small section of the whole image (multilayer cut) and paste it, desaturate, set the blending/levels and mask/erase..this process is repeated many times over, so you end up with a lot of tiny enhancement layers, which you then collapse down at some point. Yes, the whacky shortcut for the BW adjustment layer was already mentioned, i suppose i have to get used to using that one - the good news is that AP goes back into the Layers tab after clicking Merge when using the shortcut.

[Foomandoonian]

I'm 1000% with @zynexis on this! The lack of a simple Filters > Colours > Desaturate* drives me nuts almost every time I use AP.

I know there's an adjustment layer and other ways to accomplish this, but it feels like a workaround rather than the basic function it should be. Just because a task is simple to perform or can be accomplished with macros doesn't mean there shouldn't be a fast and intuitive way when the task is so common and is something new users would expect to be standard.

* Or Layer > Desaturate alongside Invert, frankly.

[kirk23]

On 6/23/2021 at 7:23 PM, Foomandoonian said:

I'm 1000% with @zynexis on this! The lack of a simple Filters > Colours > Desaturate* drives me nuts almost every time I use AP

* Or Layer > Desaturate alongside Invert, frankly.

Why  black&white  from library panel is not simple enough for you guys?  it's just one click.   Or you a can always add your own macro to the library if black&white s not good enough.   You could do an action that put " black and white"adjustment layer on the very top  for example.

I wish I could set F keys for macros although. Same way I can in Photoshop

[Wosven]

Why not simply set the document to Grey and save?

[Pšenda]

1 hour ago, Wosven said:

Why not simply set the document to Grey and save?

OP needs Desaturate only one layer? 

[Wosven]

16 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

OP needs Desaturate only one layer? 

In this case, yes, B&W is good, since it permit correcting tones when there's yellow or colors that need to be darker. PS’ dessaturate always do a bad job of it, since visually some adjustements should be made to ensure important and strong part of an image appear in a B&W version.

For example, red usually is visually important on an image, but end up light grey when desaturated. If the focus of an image is a red lipstick lips, you need to blakened the red to get the same visual result (in B&W, black is the strong tint).

B&W is specific, that's why you can't use desaturated logos, but the ones provided by designers to ensure same lisibility. When working on B&W photographies, we needed to play in the lab (red chamber) to get more interesting images...